Puma Helicopter (RAF)

[mrclark303]

The further back you go the more ludicrous it gets.

Completely agree.

This is something the previous DS just did not get to grips with and it should have been prioritised.

It's enough to make your groan isn't it.......

It's getting quite ridiculous .... The Army and RAF are just screaming for UH70, they have been requesting Blackhawk since the turn of the century, but no-one in charge (who wants a non executive directorship position on the Leonardo board anyway) is listening, Tory or Labour.....

It will be a pointless handful of extremely expensive,gold plated 149's, we all know it....

Lucky if we get 25 by 2030....

[Poiuytrewq]

…NMH pushed into the long grass, Merlins turned over to the Navy…

Great and now it’s time to transfer the Wildcats across to the Navy.

60 Wildcats should have been what RN got in the first place. Still time to do it now. The current RN Wildcats have almost no allowance for any attrition whatsoever. No strength in depth.

Adding extra escorts and in time OPVs with hangers will require more Wildcats. Each escort can and will be able to embark 2 Wildcats. That capacity allows a single T31 to be a phenomenally potent ASuW asset.

As an example each T31 could embark:

- 32x CAMM
- 16x NSM
- 24x TLAM (or equivalent)
- 2x Wildcat with 10 LMM+2SV or 20 LMM or 4SV each
- 3x RHIBs and EMF >50

That’s an amazing capability and if operating in groups of 2 or 3 vessels it’s a lethal ASuW combination as well as extremely cost effective.

…The Army and RAF are just screaming for UH70, they have been requesting Blackhawk since the turn of the century…

If the SF Chinook order is cancelled perhaps an order for Blackhawks assembled in the U.K. for an enlarged NMH would smooth over the fallout. Combined the budgets are £3.5bn so probably enough for around 100x S-70i.

Given the lessons learned in Ukraine are the Army Wildcats even relevant on the battlefield anymore? Surely drones spotting for the Apaches in highly attritional battle spaces are more sensible.

Therefore, it’s the perfect time to have a complete reassessment of the UK’s helicopter assets. Current funding appears to be enough to sort it out if the correct decisions are made

[SD67]

…NMH pushed into the long grass, Merlins turned over to the Navy…

Great and now it’s time to transfer the Wildcats across to the Navy.

60 Wildcats should have been what RN got in the first place. Still time to do it now. The current RN Wildcats have almost no allowance for any attrition whatsoever. No strength in depth.

Adding extra escorts and in time OPVs with hangers will require more Wildcats. Each escort can and will be able to embark 2 Wildcats. That capacity allows a single T31 to be a phenomenally potent ASuW asset.

Agreed. They could also be used by the LRG. Does Sea Venom have a land attack mode? I'm a bit sceptical about sending AH64s to sea for an extended period, a bombed up Wildcat could be a potent little "good enough" substitute.

[new guy]

Agreed. They could also be used by the LRG. Does Sea Venom have a land attack mode? I'm a bit sceptical about sending AH64s to sea for an extended period, a bombed up Wildcat could be a potent little "good enough" substitute.

The original PDF describes it as being "Effective against a wide target set, both sea and land", whether that includes moving targets on land I'm not certain.

If the Navy was to have 60 odd Wildcats, I'd want to look at Brimstone II integration. Something that still irks me the MoD under the former SoS failed to do for Apache-E. How can we ever hope to have export success when we can't even support our own best products?

[Poiuytrewq]

Agreed. They could also be used by the LRG. Does Sea Venom have a land attack mode? I'm a bit sceptical about sending AH64s to sea for an extended period, a bombed up Wildcat could be a potent little "good enough" substitute.

Absolutely the Sea Venom has a land attack capability. The Warhead size is around 10 times larger than LMM and around 5 times larger than Brimstone. Effectively the 3 missiles are both complementary as well as distinctly different.

If the Navy was to have 60 odd Wildcats, I'd want to look at Brimstone II integration. Something that still irks me the MoD under the former SoS failed to do for Apache-E. How can we ever hope to have export success when we can't even support our own best products?

As a very rough rule of thumb the UK Military needs to double what it currently has or is currently planning. There are exceptions such as the CVFs and the CASD but in general it’s about spot on. The Wildcats are a perfect example as is the NMH programme.

IMO for Littoral Strike to work it needs to overmatch the opposition by not just 3/1 but by 5/1 or more. It’s a sledgehammer to crack a nut. But what if something goes wrong and the intel on the opposition is wrong? Then a second sledge hammer is required.

My point is, that without the full CSG attending the FCF need to be able to overmatch the suspected opposition TWICE or eventually disaster will ensue. Does RN have the resources to do that? How would that shape the scale of the LRG?

Asking for Army Apaches to continually attach to the LRG is politically and strategically unwise for RN IMO and therefore a close support helicopter for the FCF optimised for Littoral Strike is crucial and in the overmatched quantities mentioned above.

IMO the Army Wildcat Battlefield role is now obsolete for peer on peer conflict after lessons learnt in Ukraine and the obvious answer is to add mass to the LRGs by transferring them across to the CHF and optimising them for both Littoral Strike as well as supporting the new rapid reaction forces.

[SW1]

Agreed. They could also be used by the LRG. Does Sea Venom have a land attack mode? I'm a bit sceptical about sending AH64s to sea for an extended period, a bombed up Wildcat could be a potent little "good enough" substitute.

The original PDF describes it as being "Effective against a wide target set, both sea and land", whether that includes moving targets on land I'm not certain.

If the Navy was to have 60 odd Wildcats, I'd want to look at Brimstone II integration. Something that still irks me the MoD under the former SoS failed to do for Apache-E. How can we ever hope to have export success when we can't even support our own best products?

If the navy has 60 wildcats most would be sat in the hanger with nobody to fly them.

[Poiuytrewq]

If the navy has 60 wildcats most would be sat in the hanger with nobody to fly them.

How long is it going to be before they become so obsolescent in the Army role that they end up sat in a hanger anyway?

Cheap and easily replaceable drones will be designating targets for the Artillery and Apache going forward so the Army Wildcat justification is becoming more and more difficult to defend. IMO replacing the 32x Army Wildcats as part of the NMH programme is a much higher priority than persevering with its current role.

[SW1]

If the navy has 60 wildcats most would be sat in the hanger with nobody to fly them.

How long is it going to be before they become so obsolescent in the Army role that they end up sat in a hanger anyway?

Cheap and easily replaceable drones will be designating targets for the Artillery and Apache going forward so the Army Wildcat justification is becoming more and more difficult to defend. IMO replacing the 32x Army Wildcats as part of the NMH programme is a much higher priority than persevering with its current role.

Maybe maybe not. Still doesn’t mean the navy has crew to use them.

[Poiuytrewq]

Maybe maybe not. Still doesn’t mean the navy has crew to use them.

What use would small unarmed battlefield helicopters have in Ukraine? Virtually none.

Why continue to operate a capability that is of dubious value when funds are so stretched? There is no logical reason. There is also absolutely no way RN/RAF would be operating 32x helicopters in a role that is virtually defunct so why is the Army doing it?

Expanding the CHF is a problem that can be solved. Finding a role for small unarmed battlefield helicopters is unsolvable now as technology has provided a more cost effective and less hazardous solution.

Time for change.

[SD67]

Maybe maybe not. Still doesn’t mean the navy has crew to use them.

Same story across the board.

In some ways I feel the Navy is probably well enough equipped for its current deployable strength.

That said, I think Wildcat is wasted on the Army. Much like Merlin in RAF service it's fundamentally a naval helicopter pushed into a land role. NMH, suitably equipped, can fulfill its role alongside those shiny new Apache Es, plus any theoretical Gazelle replacement.

[SW1]

Maybe maybe not. Still doesn’t mean the navy has crew to use them.

What use would small unarmed battlefield helicopters have in Ukraine? Virtually none.

Why continue to operate a capability that is of dubious value when funds are so stretched? There is no logical reason. There is also absolutely no way RN/RAF would be operating 32x helicopters in a role that is virtually defunct so why is the Army doing it?

Expanding the CHF is a problem that can be solved. Finding a role for small unarmed battlefield helicopters is unsolvable now as technology has provided a more cost effective and less hazardous solution.

Time for change.

So how does this change work then? You scrap wildcat in the army great. Do u think all the army people are gonna go across to commando helicopters and hey presto the commando helicopter force is going to suddenly increase?


If you think wildcat is useless in the army then role would it have in the commandos?

[SW1]

Maybe maybe not. Still doesn’t mean the navy has crew to use them.

Same story across the board.

In some ways I feel the Navy is probably well enough equipped for its current deployable strength.

That said, I think Wildcat is wasted on the Army. Much like Merlin in RAF service it's fundamentally a naval helicopter pushed into a land role. NMH, suitably equipped, can fulfill its role alongside those shiny new Apache Es, plus any theoretical Gazelle replacement.

If your question is should NMH be seen as a much wider replacement program I agree. It should replace all rotorcraft in all roles between chinook and apache but there is not a budget for that and no one is prepared to do what is required to prioritise and agree a budget for that.

[mrclark303]

Maybe maybe not. Still doesn’t mean the navy has crew to use them.

Same story across the board.

In some ways I feel the Navy is probably well enough equipped for its current deployable strength.

That said, I think Wildcat is wasted on the Army. Much like Merlin in RAF service it's fundamentally a naval helicopter pushed into a land role. NMH, suitably equipped, can fulfill its role alongside those shiny new Apache Es, plus any theoretical Gazelle replacement.

Totally wasted, it was a politically derived decision and it was forced on the Army.

The Army actually required a small utility helicopter capable of carrying 8 fully equipped men....

The received a eye watering expensive machine, that can carry 4, with no money left to weaponise or add additional sensors for the scouting role...

It's litteraly about as much use a chocolate tea pot to the Army as currently configured.

[Poiuytrewq]

So how does this change work then? You scrap wildcat in the army great. Do u think all the army people are gonna go across to commando helicopters and hey presto the commando helicopter force is going to suddenly increase?

Of course not the expanded NMH programme which should replace Wildcat in the Army would require those personnel.

If you think wildcat is useless in the army then role would it have in the commandos?

Good question.

IMO the Wildcats Army role to conduct surveillance and to identify targets for the Artillery and Apache is no longer relevant on the modern battlefield. Cheap and plentiful drones can provide the same capability for a fraction of the cost. The Wildcat could have a Battlefield role against non peer opponents if armed with LMM, Brimstone and forward firing 20mm but the Army has ample Apache for this role so it isn’t a priority.

Conversely the FCF has no such capability. The RN Wildcats are optimised for ASuW. They are not optimised for supporting the FCF. If properly configured the Wildcats are perfect to support a light strike force such as the FCF and the Wildcats compact dimensions are great for maximising limited hanger space.

It would be a much better use of the UKs limited resources.

If your question is should NMH be seen as a much wider replacement program I agree. It should replace all rotorcraft in all roles between chinook and apache but there is not a budget for that and no one is prepared to do what is required to prioritise and agree a budget for that.

How is there an eye-watering budget for questionable SF Chinooks and a pittance for a new medium helicopter for the Army? Someone somewhere has got the priorities wrong.

The SF Chinook and NMH budgets combined are £3.5bn. A lot could be achieved with it if sense prevailed.

[Poiuytrewq]

Apologies for repeating your points. We must have been typing at the same time.

[SW1]

If your question is should NMH be seen as a much wider replacement program I agree. It should replace all rotorcraft in all roles between chinook and apache but there is not a budget for that and no one is prepared to do what is required to prioritise and agree a budget for that.

I didn't ask a question but I agree on both your answer and assessment.

[SW1]

So how does this change work then? You scrap wildcat in the army great. Do u think all the army people are gonna go across to commando helicopters and hey presto the commando helicopter force is going to suddenly increase?

Of course not the expanded NMH programme which should replace Wildcat in the Army would require those personnel.

If you think wildcat is useless in the army then role would it have in the commandos?

Good question.

IMO the Wildcats Army role to conduct surveillance and to identify targets for the Artillery and Apache is no longer relevant on the modern battlefield. Cheap and plentiful drones can provide the same capability for a fraction of the cost. The Wildcat could have a Battlefield role against non peer opponents if armed with LMM, Brimstone and forward firing 20mm but the Army has ample Apache for this role so it isn’t a priority.

Conversely the FCF has no such capability. The RN Wildcats are optimised for ASuW. They are not optimised for supporting the FCF. If properly configured the Wildcats are perfect to support a light strike force such as the FCF and the Wildcats compact dimensions are great for maximising limited hanger space.

It would be a much better use of the UKs limited resources.

If your question is should NMH be seen as a much wider replacement program I agree. It should replace all rotorcraft in all roles between chinook and apache but there is not a budget for that and no one is prepared to do what is required to prioritise and agree a budget for that.

How is there an eye-watering budget for questionable SF Chinooks and a pittance for a new medium helicopter for the Army? Someone somewhere has got the priorities wrong.

The SF Chinook and NMH budgets combined are £3.5bn. A lot could be achieved with it if sense prevailed.

847 NAS uses exactly the same wildcats as the army air corp do and use it in exactly the same roles as the army air corps do. If they are in your opinion irrelevant in the army then they are irrelevant in the commandos too.


The cost for special forces chinooks is not new the foreign military sale was issued 4 years ago and the price quoted was 3.4 billion dollars for 16 at the time. You can’t really do that on the cheap there is a lot of systems that need to go into it.

If you don’t want special forces insertion capabilities on chinook and something else instead that’s a perfectly acceptable choice but both options are sensible choices. Like most things helicopters and transport/ logistics are not particularly sexy or important when it comes to capital spend and rarely are they prioritised over fighty things. Would I prioritise more into these areas I think I would as I’ve said in the past these are part of the most request areas namely, submarines, strategic transport, aew, intelligence gathering and specialist forces like marines and paras. But that means cutting other things to do it.

[Repulse]

Ok, so how about the Navy/RMs take the Army Wildcats and spends the MRSS budget to marinise / equip these and increase recruitment of pilots. It also purchases another commercial flat-top (LPH/ASS) and hands the rest to the Army to expand the NMH budget, possibly by 50-100%.

[SW1]

Ok, so how about the Navy/RMs take the Army Wildcats and spends the MRSS budget to marinise / equip these and increase recruitment of pilots. It also purchases another commercial flat-top (LPH/ASS) and hands the rest to the Army to expand the NMH budget, possibly by 50-100%.

If you had stopped at the first sentence then I think that would be workable.

[serge750]

Ok, so how about the Navy/RMs take the Army Wildcats and spends the MRSS budget to marinise / equip these and increase recruitment of pilots. It also purchases another commercial flat-top (LPH/ASS) and hands the rest to the Army to expand the NMH budget, possibly by 50-100%.

If you had stopped at the first sentence then I think that would be workable.

Ok, just say the UK did the first part with the MRSS budget, what benefit would it have to the Army - more available trained pilots for sure, maybe limited funds for new UAVs?

For the RN/RMs the benefit of 34 Wildcats would be significant. The CVFs could embark a permanent squadron on each carrier of @8 a/c, with say 2-3 a/c on Argus. The range of roles would also complement the CHF and existing RN units from transporting the RMs, light logistics, providing additional maritime security and even if a dipping sonar was added to some, additional ASW capabilities.

[Poiuytrewq]

Apologies for repeating your points. We must have been typing at the same time.

No apologies needed mate

[Tempest414]

As I said before make the NMH program 66 airframes split 20 to the RAF and 30 to the Army with 12 in a joint OCU and 4 held for deep maintenance next move 26 Wildcats to the Navy with 18 feed into service and 8 held for deep maintenance / upgrade with the remaining 8 sold all 3 services get what they needed

Just to add to this the NMH should be fitted with folding rotors to allow them to fit in navy hangars as needed

[SD67]

That sounds very sensible.

[Tempest414]

As I said before make the NMH program 66 airframes split 20 to the RAF and 30 to the Army with 12 in a joint OCU and 4 held for deep maintenance next move 26 Wildcats to the Navy with 18 feed into service and 8 held for deep maintenance / upgrade with the remaining 8 sold all 3 services get what they needed

Just to add to this the NMH should be fitted with folding rotors to allow them to fit in navy hangars as needed

Absolutely, Helicopters are so scarce, we need to get maximum bang for our buck, so a maritime capable platform, (i.e, not top heavy) corrosion treatment, with tie down points and manually folding blades.

[Repulse]

As I said before make the NMH program 66 airframes split 20 to the RAF and 30 to the Army with 12 in a joint OCU and 4 held for deep maintenance next move 26 Wildcats to the Navy with 18 feed into service and 8 held for deep maintenance / upgrade with the remaining 8 sold all 3 services get what they needed

Just to add to this the NMH should be fitted with folding rotors to allow them to fit in navy hangars as needed

How much would you raise by selling 8 Wildcats? £200mn? What else would you cut or not do to pay for it?

I think getting significant helicopter platforms, pilots and support capabilities is key for a balanced force and the nation’s objectives, so have put the MRSS budget on the table, but I tend to agree with @SW1 that it’s going to take alot of money and even this will not be enough.