Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

[SW1]

If they order American they get no blow back, the defence is we ordered American is was the lowest risk and the best, that’s the mentality. It’s the easiest option for a quiet life until the next posting

[SD67]

I was thinking the same. "Noone ever got fired for buying IBM", as they used to say

[SW1]

If they order American they get no blow back, the defence is we ordered American is was the lowest risk and the best, that’s the mentality. It’s the easiest option for a quiet life until the next posting

There are also certain 'voices' in the corridors of Whitehall and Westminster who have a curiously determined passion 'advising' for US made kit...

One in particular is rumored to have his paws all over this.

[SD67]

Can we just do what the French do and throw and Ambassadorship, a peerage and an advisory role for life at him.

[BB85]

The news of this is pretty shocking, I was under the impression the US missiles where less than half the price of brimstone making it hard to justify the cost of integration.
If they are significantly more expensive, less capable and we get no workshare is criminal.

[Poiuytrewq]

The news of this is pretty shocking, I was under the impression the US missiles where less than half the price of brimstone making it hard to justify the cost of integration.
If they are significantly more expensive, less capable and we get no workshare is criminal.

HMT always gets a hard time, which in many cases is justified but in instances like these it is no wonder there is a reluctance to throw more money at defence.

With vehicle procurement being an unmitigated disaster zone over the last few decades credibility needed to be urgently restored. The last thing the Army needs now is another overpriced, unjustifiable program turning into a media pile-on.

The end result will inevitably be a humiliating fiasco and another PR disaster for the Army at a time when all government departments are screaming for more funding and replenishing missile stockpiles is being prioritised.

Blaming short term integration risks for non-adoption when Brimstone is a massive success story for UKPLC and potential export goldmine shows a complete disregard by decision makers for any industrial strategy HMG may be trying to advance.

The decision makers need to start making better decisions.

[SD67]

And with impeccable timing, this pops up in the Torygraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/1 ... elicopter/

[SW1]

And with impeccable timing, this pops up in the Torygraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/1 ... elicopter/

An article full of twaddle from start to finish. One wonders if these things are just done for clicks in the paper.

[GarethDavies1]

Awful biased article missing the issues of being held to ransom by foreign companies particularly from the US.

[mrclark303]

And with impeccable timing, this pops up in the Torygraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/1 ... elicopter/

An article full of twaddle from start to finish. One wonders if these things are just done for clicks in the paper.

Not all twaddle ( though there is a tremendous amount there) the Apache point is correct, though I would take exception to the unit price.

It's generally accepted that we paid between 2 to 3 times the unit price of the US Army examples, for our Westlands assembled examples, depending how you crunch the figures.

That's a typical example of why we spend 42 billion a year on defence, yet have so very little to show for it.

On the other hand, in the mid 1990's, Westlands was at least a British Company I suppose.

Ajax, well we ordered enough of a bespoke product to make it viable, but then just utterly screwed up the build programme.

It seems to getting back on track now thank god....

Here's the rub with Ajax, because of its job, it's packed with technology, that tech will be obsolete in 10 years and getting hard to support as it's OEM base won't be manufacturing replacement electronics.

That will mean a 'technology refresh' by 2040 and that will inevitably mean billions again on Ajax.

It's never been more important to try and gain international concesus regarding complex military requirements and develop high end equipment internationally.

The cost of the inevitable 10 year technology refresh cycle is going to become too much for any one country to bear financially, especially with multiple complex systems in service, with the exception of Uncle Sam.

[SD67]

And with impeccable timing, this pops up in the Torygraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/1 ... elicopter/

An article full of twaddle from start to finish. One wonders if these things are just done for clicks in the paper.

Ajax, well we ordered enough of a bespoke product to make it viable, but then just utterly screwed up the build programme.

It seems to getting back on track now thank god....
...

Here's the rub with Ajax, because of its job, it's packed with technology, that tech will be obsolete in 10 years and getting hard to support as it's OEM base won't be manufacturing replacement electronics.

That will mean a 'technology refresh' by 2040 and that will inevitably mean billions again on Ajax.

I've never understood this. What recce requirement does our army have that no other army deems necessary. (apart from the Kettle). It should have been seriously challenged.

I don't see it as bad execution. The whole concept is wrong - spending billions on a bespoke high end reconnaisance capability when that mission is being commoditised by drones you can buy at Halfords.

And if there really is a unique UK need for gold plated electronics then it should have been modularised and separated from the platform. By making it bespoke and platform specific you're basically allowing GD to milk us for the next 30 years.

[mr.fred]

And if there really is a unique UK need for gold plated electronics then it should have been modularised and separated from the platform. By making it bespoke and platform specific you're basically allowing GD to milk us for the next 30 years.

Isn't Ajax supposed to be GVA compliant? So the electronics are modular and can be swapped out?

[SD67]

And if there really is a unique UK need for gold plated electronics then it should have been modularised and separated from the platform. By making it bespoke and platform specific you're basically allowing GD to milk us for the next 30 years.

Isn't Ajax supposed to be GVA compliant? So the electronics are modular and can be swapped out?

If that's true then why persist with the Platform? Take out the electronics and plug them into something OTS.

[GarethDavies1]

And with impeccable timing, this pops up in the Torygraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/1 ... elicopter/

An article full of twaddle from start to finish. One wonders if these things are just done for clicks in the paper.

Ajax, well we ordered enough of a bespoke product to make it viable, but then just utterly screwed up the build programme.

It seems to getting back on track now thank god....
...

Here's the rub with Ajax, because of its job, it's packed with technology, that tech will be obsolete in 10 years and getting hard to support as it's OEM base won't be manufacturing replacement electronics.

That will mean a 'technology refresh' by 2040 and that will inevitably mean billions again on Ajax.

I've never understood this. What recce requirement does our army have that no other army deems necessary. (apart from the Kettle). It should have been seriously challenged.

I don't see it as bad execution. The whole concept is wrong - spending billions on a bespoke high end reconnaisance capability when that mission is being commoditised by drones you can buy at Halfords.

And if there really is a unique UK need for gold plated electronics then it should have been modularised and separated from the platform. By making it bespoke and platform specific you're basically allowing GD to milk us for the next 30 years.

I think being milked is the whole point!

[Little J]

And with impeccable timing, this pops up in the Torygraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/1 ... elicopter/

An article full of twaddle from start to finish. One wonders if these things are just done for clicks in the paper.

Not all twaddle ( though there is a tremendous amount there) the Apache point is correct, though I would take exception to the unit price.

It's generally accepted that we paid between 2 to 3 times the unit price of the US Army examples, for our Westlands assembled examples, depending how you crunch the figures.

That's a typical example of why we spend 42 billion a year on defence, yet have so very little to show for it.

The recent AGM-179A order really fooked up the whole "get on the cheaper, US bandwagon" hasn't it

The MoD needs an extra strong leader to come in and sweep away all the chuffin useless civil servants and career "yes" men. There are far to many in Whitehall that are safe from their ineptitude.

[Little J]

As a quick addition to my last...

The deal for the AGM-179's hasn't been approved by the Yanks yet. Is there anything stopping us from cancelling and getting Brimstone Quallied instead?

*Other than political will

[mrclark303]

And with impeccable timing, this pops up in the Torygraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/1 ... elicopter/

An article full of twaddle from start to finish. One wonders if these things are just done for clicks in the paper.

Ajax, well we ordered enough of a bespoke product to make it viable, but then just utterly screwed up the build programme.

It seems to getting back on track now thank god....
...

Here's the rub with Ajax, because of its job, it's packed with technology, that tech will be obsolete in 10 years and getting hard to support as it's OEM base won't be manufacturing replacement electronics.

That will mean a 'technology refresh' by 2040 and that will inevitably mean billions again on Ajax.

I've never understood this. What recce requirement does our army have that no other army deems necessary. (apart from the Kettle). It should have been seriously challenged.

I don't see it as bad execution. The whole concept is wrong - spending billions on a bespoke high end reconnaisance capability when that mission is being commoditised by drones you can buy at Halfords.

And if there really is a unique UK need for gold plated electronics then it should have been modularised and separated from the platform. By making it bespoke and platform specific you're basically allowing GD to milk us for the next 30 years.

I think being milked is the whole point!

I have to agree, why we couldn't look at what everyone else was doing and team up, I just don't know.

I'm shocked at just how far Ajax came off the rails!
The cost went through the roof and the delays just stretched into the future without any hint of let up!

[mrclark303]

And with impeccable timing, this pops up in the Torygraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/1 ... elicopter/

An article full of twaddle from start to finish. One wonders if these things are just done for clicks in the paper.

Not all twaddle ( though there is a tremendous amount there) the Apache point is correct, though I would take exception to the unit price.

It's generally accepted that we paid between 2 to 3 times the unit price of the US Army examples, for our Westlands assembled examples, depending how you crunch the figures.

That's a typical example of why we spend 42 billion a year on defence, yet have so very little to show for it.

The recent AGM-179A order really fooked up the whole "get on the cheaper, US bandwagon" hasn't it

The MoD needs an extra strong leader to come in and sweep away all the chuffin useless civil servants and career "yes" men. There are far to many in Whitehall that are safe from their ineptitude.

Point absolutely taken, Brimstone is superior in every way, however my caviat would be that AGM-179A is already integrated, in service, with vast stocks to call on in wartime.

Going by the usual UK procurement standard, Brimstone integration on the E, would end up taking at least double the predicted timescale and cost three time as much!

[SW1]

[
Point absolutely taken, Brimstone is superior in every way, however my caviat would be that AGM-179A is already integrated, in service, with vast stocks to call on in wartime.

Going by the usual UK procurement standard, Brimstone integration on the E, would end up taking at least double the predicted timescale and cost three time as much!

Yes because in a war we would be the only ones looking to call on those stocks wouldn’t we! As was seen in the recent Covid issues use of the defence production act. If the US needs them we don’t get them. Hence why for expendables you need to be able to produce your own if you’re serious about having a sovereign capability.

[new guy]

what stocks? I thought It's a new missile, in initial production.

[mrclark303]

[
Point absolutely taken, Brimstone is superior in every way, however my caviat would be that AGM-179A is already integrated, in service, with vast stocks to call on in wartime.

Going by the usual UK procurement standard, Brimstone integration on the E, would end up taking at least double the predicted timescale and cost three time as much!

Yes because in a war we would be the only ones looking to call on those stocks wouldn’t we! As was seen in the recent Covid issues use of the defence production act. If the US needs them we don’t get them. Hence why for expendables you need to be able to produce your own if you’re serious about having a sovereign capability.

Sovereign capability SW1, do you think it's still 1930?

We have sovereign capability in warship shipbuilding and to a lesser extent SSN/SSBN's with some reliance on US reactor elements.

We have a golden opportunity to be a big player again in military fast jets thanks to GCAP too.

.... And, well nothing else comes to mind really...

Sovereign weapons capability, get real, we haven't even been able to produce our own small arms since 1994 when ROF Nottingham closed down....

Horse long gone to the glue factory, gate rusted off its hinges and stable roof collapsed years ago.

So I'll follow the UK procurement logic, we decided to buy AH64E at an incredibly low price, so then we start our traditional £££££££ tinkering and 'integrate our own weapon systems'.

Results, a massive delay in its primary weapon system and a total cost at least three times the budget, it's what always happens, why would this be any different??

For the love of god and the AAC, just leave the bloody thing alone and stop tinkering, it works, bullet dodged!

I'll settle for a capable weapon system that Uncle Sam will pay to integrate, over a superior weapon that would probably get axed from AH64E integration with Labours first SDSR, easy low hanging fruit that one.

[mrclark303]

what stocks? I thought It's a new missile, in initial production.

Yep new variant and the US Army will order tens of thousands of them, in the event of war, the taps would be turned on with NATO pooled ordinance stocks.

[new guy]

what stocks? I thought It's a new missile, in initial production.

Yep new variant and the US Army will order tens of thousands of them, in the event of war, the taps would be turned on with NATO pooled ordinance stocks.

They don't exist in number yet nor for a long time though, the stocks will take ages to build up. And the stocks are proportionate to their user; In the event of war, we ain't getting more than our stocks.

[new guy]

[
Point absolutely taken, Brimstone is superior in every way, however my caviat would be that AGM-179A is already integrated, in service, with vast stocks to call on in wartime.

Going by the usual UK procurement standard, Brimstone integration on the E, would end up taking at least double the predicted timescale and cost three time as much!

Yes because in a war we would be the only ones looking to call on those stocks wouldn’t we! As was seen in the recent Covid issues use of the defence production act. If the US needs them we don’t get them. Hence why for expendables you need to be able to produce your own if you’re serious about having a sovereign capability.

Sovereign capability SW1, do you think it's still 1930?

We have sovereign capability in warship shipbuilding and to a lesser extent SSN/SSBN's with some reliance on US reactor elements.

We have a golden opportunity to be a big player again in military fast jets thanks to GCAP too.

.... And, well nothing else comes to mind really...

Sovereign weapons capability, get real, we haven't even been able to produce our own small arms since 1994 when ROF Nottingham closed down....

Horse long gone to the glue factory, gate rusted off its hinges and stable roof collapsed years ago.

So I'll follow the UK procurement logic, we decided to buy AH64E at an incredibly low price, so then we start our traditional £££££££ tinkering and 'integrate our own weapon systems'.

Results, a massive delay in its primary weapon system and a total cost at least three times the budget, it's what always happens, why would this be any different??

For the love of god and the AAC, just leave the bloody thing alone and stop tinkering, it works, bullet dodged!

I'll settle for a capable weapon system that Uncle Sam will pay to integrate, over a superior weapon that would probably get axed from AH64E integration with Labours first SDSR, easy low hanging fruit that one.

Except the intigration was only £70m for 3000 missiles, with the US one being 2x the price and less capable in some areas.

[new guy]