Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

[Ron5]

Are you quite sure? It's being widely reported that the UK is getting brand new air frames straight off the production line with a few systems (like the longbow) being transferred from the older UK aircraft. A figure of 8.5 million per airframe is also being reported.

[Pseudo]

Are you quite sure? It's being widely reported that the UK is getting brand new air frames straight off the production line with a few systems (like the longbow) being transferred from the older UK aircraft. A figure of 8.5 million per airframe is also being reported.

The pound may have rallied a little in the past few days, but aren't new built supposed to be around the $35m mark?

[Halidon]

This SAP from last year classifies the then-pending FMS to the UK for 50 AH-64Es as for remanufactured airframes.

[bobp]

This is what we are getting for our pennies....
The Government of the United Kingdom has requested the remanufacture of fifty (50) United Kingdom (UK) WAH-64 Mk 1 Attack Helicopters to AH-64E Apache Guardian Helicopters with one hundred and ten (110) T-700-GE-701D Engines (100 installed and 10 spares), the refurbishment of fifty-three (53) AN/ASQ-170 Modernized Target Acquisition and Designation Sights (M-TADS) (50 installed and 3 spares), the refurbishment of fifty-three (53) AN/AAR-11 Modernized Pilot Night Vision Sensors (PNVS) (50 installed and 3 spares), the refurbishment of fifty-two (52) AN/APG-78 Fire Control Radars (FCR) (50 installed and 2 spares) with fifty-five (55) Radar Electronics Units (Longbow Component) (50 installed and 5 spares), fifty-two (52) AN/APR-48B Modernized Radar Frequency Interferometers (50 installed and 2 spares), sixty (60) AAR-57(V) 3/5 Common Missile Warning Systems (CMWS) with 5th Sensor and Improved Countermeasure Dispenser (50 installed and 10 spares), one hundred and twenty (120) Embedded Global Positioning Systems (GPS) with Inertial Navigation (100 installed and 20 spares), and three hundred (300) Apache Aviator Integrated Helmets.

Also included are AN/AVR-2B Laser Detecting Sets, AN/APR-39D(V)2 Radar Signal Detecting Sets, Integrated Helmet and Display Sight Systems (IHDSS-21), Manned-Unmanned Teaming International (MUMT-I), KOR-24A Link 16 terminals, M206 infrared countermeasure flares, M211 and M212 Advanced Infrared Countermeasure Munitions (AIRCMM) flares, Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) transponders, ammunition, communication equipment, tools and test equipment, training devices, simulators, generators, transportation, wheeled vehicles, organizational equipment, spare and repair parts, support equipment, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $3.00 billion.

[Ron5]

You guys need to read what is being reported now not old stuff. As I've pointed out before, stuff listed and costs quoted in foreign military sales requests do not represent final contracts and should only be used as guidelines not gospel.

You're getting brand new airframes from the Mesa production line with a few gizmos transferred over (like the Longbow) if they still fit and if they will work, to save a few bucks.

[Ron5]

Are you quite sure? It's being widely reported that the UK is getting brand new air frames straight off the production line with a few systems (like the longbow) being transferred from the older UK aircraft. A figure of 8.5 million per airframe is also being reported.

The pound may have rallied a little in the past few days, but aren't new built supposed to be around the $35m mark?

I have no idea what is or is not included in the 8.5 million (or even if it was reported correctly) but as a guess, it might just be a bare airframe with no engines or mission electronics. In which case it's probably reasonable.

8.5 million pounds not $. Now where did I read that, maybe online Flight?

[Gabriele]

"New airframes" and "new build Apache AH-64E" are not the same thing. The remanufacture process does include brand new airframes produced by KAI in South Korea, being filled with systems moved across from old ones. The production line in Mesa is the same: it does remanufacture, it does new-new. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... he-348993/

So, yes, the airframes are new. Yet no, the Apache is not new build.

[Ron5]

Here:

http://forces.tv/63899218

[Ron5]

In April, Boeing got an order from the US Army to re-manufacture 117 Apache to AH-64E standard: 1.5 billion or approx $13m each.

This week, Boeing got a contract to deliver 50 AH-64E to the UK: 2.3 billion or approx $46m each

[RetroSicotte]

Those prices may not match up in terms of what they provide though.

[bobp]

Even at that price they are cheaper than the originals from Augusta Westland now Leonardo.

[Ron5]

I'm 99% sure the UK is getting brand new flyable helicopters with some of the UK combat systems (as opposed to flying systems) being refurbished and transferred across by Boeing. Rather like the Type 26 is getting some systems from the Type 23.

I think you can see from the financial numbers, the UK should be getting an excellent weapon system. Hopefully with folding rotors

[RunningStrong]

Only if the folding rotors are part of the Guardian build standard, though they certainly would prove useful for deployability and maritime.

[Gabriele]

I believe folding rotors became standard on the Apache years ago, after the AH1 example. The US Army woke up to the fact that it is easier to push an Apache in and out of a cargo aircraft for rapid deployment if the blades fold.

[Jdam]

seen this on Gab's twitter

Mbda tests Brimstone on Apache

http://www.combataircraft.net/2016/07/1 ... on-apache/

MBDA and Boeing have jointly completed a series of firing trials of the Brimstone 2 missile on the AH-64E attack helicopter

This culminated in a number of successful guided firings from a standard Apache M299 launcher.

About time

[ArmChairCivvy]

a number of successful guided firings from a standard Apache M299 launcher

That (common launch arrangement) could be a game changer... just load different missiles

[Ron5]

I believe folding rotors became standard on the Apache years ago, after the AH1 example. The US Army woke up to the fact that it is easier to push an Apache in and out of a cargo aircraft for rapid deployment if the blades fold.

You're quite right to point the misnomer when we glibly talk about "folding rotors". All helicopters have either manually folding rotors or rotors that can be removed. The question is how easy is that. Easy enough to be done on a carrier deck in rough seas? Or merely easy enough that with an hour or two to spare, a helicopter can be folded up to fit inside a C-17?

Well US Apaches fit into category 2, the British ones into category 1.

[Ron5]

a number of successful guided firings from a standard Apache M299 launcher

That (common launch arrangement) could be a game changer... just load different missiles

"Common" means that the same missile can be fired from many different platforms all using a "common" launcher.

Not that different missiles can use the same launcher.

[marktigger]

is the AH64E set up to work of ships with enhanced anti corrosion and improved tie downs etc?

[Gabriele]

The AH-64E of the US Army has gone on ships in the Pacific and will continue to do so, however the amount of "naval" features is kept at a minimum. The new fuselage should offer better corrosion resistance, and tie down points, i suppose, have been solved.

An in-water cockpit escape system was being jointly developed with the UK. I suppose it was embodied, but these things tend not to make the news.

[img]The question is how easy is that. Easy enough to be done on a carrier deck in rough seas? Or merely easy enough that with an hour or two to spare, a helicopter can be folded up to fit inside a C-17?

Well US Apaches fit into category 2, the British ones into category 1.[/img]

I don't think there is any real difference. The US folding rotor builds on what was done with the british AH1 and is probably identical. The AH1 itself has never had anything more than manual folding of the blades. A more powerful brake rotor to deal with wind on deck was on the wishlist after Libya, but i don't think it was ever funded. The need for it is also due to drop somewhat due to the timeframe: once the AH64E enters service, HMS Ocean will be gone and on the carriers there will be every chance to move the Apache around with unfolded blades, and only fold them once down in the hangar, away from the wind. So, probably no more money will be poured in that specific area.

Emergency floating gear will probably get greater priority. A contract was signed to put kits on the AH1, but i'm not sure if it ever actually went ahead or if it was paused.

[marktigger]

at least on AH64E they'll fold we need chinook with folding blades now

[Andy-M]

Brimstone 2 has begun trials on Apache, on the AH-64E and not the Westland version.

http://www.janes.com/article/62277/farn ... che-trials

[Ron5]

Brimstone 2 has begun trials on Apache, on the AH-64E and not the Westland version.

http://www.janes.com/article/62277/farn ... che-trials

I think the trials have actually ended. All successful.

[Ron5]

I don't think there is any real difference. The US folding rotor builds on what was done with the british AH1 and is probably identical. The AH1 itself has never had anything more than manual folding of the blades.

Very possible.

[Ron5]

I don't think there is any real difference. The US folding rotor builds on what was done with the british AH1 and is probably identical. The AH1 itself has never had anything more than manual folding of the blades.

Very possible.

More than that. Did a spot of googling and I think Gabriele is correct, looks like the airfix apaches sent to Yeovil for assembly, had the same rotor folding kit that was on offer to the US Army. Hopefully that's now either standard equipment on the AH-64E's being purchased by the UK. or at least is an optional extra that the UK ticked.