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Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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Lord Jim
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby Lord Jim » 13 Dec 2019, 17:14

Could you provide a summary of the reasons the Tiger is rated higher than the Apache for ship board operations?

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby Dahedd » 13 Dec 2019, 19:38

Lord Jim wrote:Could you provide a summary of the reasons the Tiger is rated higher than the Apache for ship board operations?


Because it was onboard a ship in a James Bond film?

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby seaspear » 13 Dec 2019, 23:04

Read the " French experience with the Apache" page 13 to 14 of the magazine I added

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby Lord Jim » 14 Dec 2019, 03:05

Quite an interesting read, but raised an eye brow by saying the French operated in conjunction with British AH-64Es in Libya! AS for the different operational doctrines, the way the UK flew its WAH-64D Apaches was the same as they had operated them in Afghanistan, but that doesn't corelate to the low availability rates the article mentions. As for the better gun on the Tiger, that is well known, but the gun itself is a larger and heavier mount compared to the Chain Gun on the Apache, so there are pros and cons there.

However the version flown in Libya by the French was the Tiger HAP which was limited to unguided rockets, Mistral AAMs and Gun pods, meaning their only true precision weapon was the chin mounted 30mm ad this required the pilots to get relatively up close and personnel, flying at a lower altitude to be effective. The British has in addition to the 30mm Chain Gun, CVR-7 Rockets and most importantly Hellfire ATGWs, allowing them to carry out precision attacks for further away and at greater altitude. The French reliance on the cannon explains the far greater number of rounds fired during their deployment and the higher number of targets destroyed by cannon fire.

There could have been many reasons for a mission being scrubbed during operations over Libya by the Apaches, and reliability would have been only one, though by no means the most common.

Al in all I think this part of the article has quite a few holes in it and seems to be driven by a desire to show the Tiger in a good light whilst showing the Apache in a bad one. Whether this is the down to the author's opinion or the source material he (or she) used. The rest of the article is pretty good and it will be interesting to see which route the ADF takes as all three options will give them a very good platform moving forward.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby Lord Jim » 14 Dec 2019, 03:06

By the way can someone remind me of the timetable for the UK's AH-64E rebuild programme and when we will receive the first ones back?

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 14 Dec 2019, 10:17

Lord Jim wrote: The British has in addition to the 30mm Chain Gun, CVR-7 Rockets and most importantly Hellfire ATGWs, allowing them to carry out precision attacks for further away and at greater altitude.


Stand-off range is everything (for survivability) - as we know from the cavalry style attack (though carried out with apaches :) ) from Iraq.
- I wonder how the ranges of Hellfire and Igla compare? OK, the latter may not be "the latest" but they are 'everywhere' especially after Gaddafi's arsenals were looted

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby RetroSicotte » 14 Dec 2019, 21:40

Worth noting that as far as I'm aware, the Tiger's gun maxes out at about 450 rounds. The Apache's has 1,200.

When it comes to persistent and ongoing CAS in an environment like Afghanistan, Tiger is absolutely horrendous. Jugroom Fort had Apache's fully loaded running dry by the end of it. Tigers would have had to return to base long before.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 15 Dec 2019, 10:22

Deviating, but how is the Italian one comparing?
- Turkey was wise to get the whole line shipped over to them, with the order... at least they will get their attack helos, if not stealth fighters

I wonder, too, why Egypt is in the market for western produce. With the Mistral copies they were supposed to be buying 30 or so Russian attack helos (already marinised; indeed awesome machines)

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby Gabriele » 16 Dec 2019, 15:56

Lord Jim wrote:By the way can someone remind me of the timetable for the UK's AH-64E rebuild programme and when we will receive the first ones back?


Apache Block 3 fleet numbers have been given by the MOD as 10 in 2020, followed by 12 more in 2021, 12 in 2022, 12 in 2023 and the balance in 2024 for the total of 50 aircraft. Until 2024, the operational fleet will be a mix of AH1 and the new ones. The low point is expected in 2021 with 43 aircraft, split almost equally between the two standards.

Components have already been ordered for all 50, but the production contract for the last 12 will be formally signed next year since it is being taken forwards within the next american Multi Year Procurement contract. The british remanufacture programme sits astride the ending MYP and the following one.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 13 Jan 2020, 14:32

Well, 12 km stand-off will not do, anymore. Hence, the DID of today tells us, US Army To Buy SPIKE NLOS For Apaches
DID news@defenseindustrydaily.com

With NLOS it will be 25 km; is that an understatement as the ground launched ones do the same?
- and how does Brimstone compare?

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby RetroSicotte » 13 Jan 2020, 15:36

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Well, 12 km stand-off will not do, anymore. Hence, the DID of today tells us, US Army To Buy SPIKE NLOS For Apaches
DID news@defenseindustrydaily.com

With NLOS it will be 25 km; is that an understatement as the ground launched ones do the same?
- and how does Brimstone compare?

I've seen various Brimstone ranges mentioned for rotary. From 12km to 40km. No clear indication.

Either way, a good range.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby Lord Jim » 13 Jan 2020, 16:00

When you start talking of a weapon system with a range greater than 15km you are no longer classing the Apache as a close support platform and more of an interdiction platform. NLOS will give the US Army a weapon with a far greater range than the current Hellfire and its successor that is already in low rate production, but for its role I still think Brimstone with its various guidance methods and good range is the best weapon for the UK's Apache fleet. It can do precision strikes either guided by the helicopter of troops further forward, be the target stationary or moving or can be salvoed again at a good range, beyond most SHORAD systems. The is a add on man in the loop option available for Brimstone and we should look at adopting this giving us the greatest flexibility.

As for NLOS or in our case Extractor Mk2, there is a definite role for it in the British Army, but probably as a ground launched weapon as it is now. It would be the ideal weapon for both as an over watch system and as a precision strike weapon, though we could do with adopting the enhanced AT warhead the Israelis have rather then the more general purpose one we currently have. So we should use Brimstone for aircraft and helicopters and Extractor Mk2 for ground platforms.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby Ron5 » 13 Jan 2020, 16:14

The original Brimstone had the same airframe as Hellfire so the same range, about 10-12 km from a helo. It's only with Brimstone 2 that the range increased. The manufacturer claims it's been doubled. That version has only been available for a couple of years and I don't think anyone has acquired it yet. I remember it being demoed over here (or maybe just displayed at the shows) for the Apache but no interest from the Pentagon. It's a tad pricey.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 13 Jan 2020, 20:38

Ron5 wrote:The original Brimstone had the same airframe as Hellfire so the same range, about 10-12 km from a helo. It's only with Brimstone 2 that the range increased. The manufacturer claims it's been doubled.


Well, US Apaches got that doubled stand-off range, but now it will be with two different missiles... rather than the El Cheapo and the more expensive one of the same

Lord Jim wrote:we could do with adopting the enhanced AT warhead the Israelis have rather then the more general purpose one we currently have
I'd like some flying artillery, and in case some advanced MBTs show up, just screw on a different warhead

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby RetroSicotte » 15 Jan 2020, 20:17

It's niteresting that the US did consider the Brimstone, but then decided not to so they could "buy American" with JAGM. Which is fair enough, countries gotta prioritise their own place.

But now they seem to have gone Spike instead, another non-American missile, when they coulda had Brimstone on it some time earlier...feels like a waste.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby bobp » 15 Jan 2020, 20:38

RetroSicotte wrote:But now they seem to have gone Spike instead


From Israel keeping their buddies in work.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby Ron5 » 15 Jan 2020, 22:42

bobp wrote:
RetroSicotte wrote:But now they seem to have gone Spike instead


From Israel keeping their buddies in work.


Who dya think paid for Spike's development?

Excellent family of missiles by the way, Spike LR would be great on UK Boxers & Ajax.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby Lord Jim » 16 Jan 2020, 06:10

The whole family are probably the best in class in each category, and the Israelis keep developing them, maintaining them at the cutting edge. BAe has just recently fired the Spike LR, from a box launcher attached to the side of a CV90, so how hard would it be to do the same to a Ajax or Warrior or even a Boxer if it actually gets the turret it needs.

As for our future Apache Guardians, Brimstone is a good fit, and using a common missile for the Army and RAF would be good, though adopting the man in the loop add on for the Helicopter version would bring additional capability of great utility. This would also make it a contender for the Army's outstanding overwatch capability requirement.

Finally isn't Brimstone 2 the only one still in production?

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby Tinman » 16 Jan 2020, 07:44

Ron5 wrote:The original Brimstone had the same airframe as Hellfire so the same range, about 10-12 km from a helo. It's only with Brimstone 2 that the range increased. The manufacturer claims it's been doubled. That version has only been available for a couple of years and I don't think anyone has acquired it yet. I remember it being demoed over here (or maybe just displayed at the shows) for the Apache but no interest from the Pentagon. It's a tad pricey.

It’s in use with the RAF and has been tested on WAH64D.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby Andy-M » 16 Jan 2020, 09:06

Ron5 wrote:The original Brimstone had the same airframe as Hellfire so the same range, about 10-12 km from a helo. It's only with Brimstone 2 that the range increased. The manufacturer claims it's been doubled. That version has only been available for a couple of years and I don't think anyone has acquired it yet. I remember it being demoed over here (or maybe just displayed at the shows) for the Apache but no interest from the Pentagon. It's a tad pricey.


There was plenty of interest from the Pentagon, it's just that they decided to produce their own version, whether because of cost or they preferred 'made in America' is the only question.

https://asc.army.mil/web/portfolio-item/ms-jagm/

https://www.navair.navy.mil/product/joi ... ssile-jagm

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby RichardIC » 10 Mar 2020, 15:48

UK now has all 50 AH-64E Apaches under contract

Image

The United Kingdom now has under contract all 50 of the Boeing AH-64E Apache Guardian attack helicopters it had previously committed to, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) confirmed to Jane’s on 10 March.

The confirmation came after a contract notification was posted by the US Department of Defense (DoD) for support and training “for the United Kingdom AH-64E Apache helicopter fleet of 50 aircraft”.

Prior to this DoD announcement and the subsequent MoD confirmation, it had only been announced that 38 of the British Army’s WAH-64D Apache Longbow AH1 attack helicopters were under contract for remanufacture to the latest AH-64E standard.

https://www.janes.com/article/94804/uk- ... r-contract

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Postby Lord Jim » 10 Mar 2020, 17:35

That is a rare bit of good news, as long as it is actually funded and not relying of savings down the road. Now we just need Brimstone, guided CVR-7 rockets and maybe even SPEAR or Spike NLOS integrated and we will be on a roll.


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