Section Infantry Weapons

[Little J]

I'm assuming they are referring to the fancy optic setup...

The rifle is obviously no more 'lethal' than the current L85A3, but it's lighter, simpler and obviously has all the benefits of the AR platform, all wrapped up in the ultimate gas impingement variation.

The Optic and the suppressor

Knights Armament make a superb AR...

Agreed. There's a reason Stoner's name is usually in the model designation.

It has a UK connection, as Edger Brothers are assembling them from kits in the UK before probably going to Birmingham for proof.

That requires no great skills, as anyone who knows the platform will tell you, easy to strip to component parts and assemble.

As far as I'm aware, they're just putting the optic and the suppressor on, that's as far as the "assembling" goes.


Can't help thinking this is just somebodies vanity project though. Why else would they require only AR-15 based designs?

[mrclark303]

I'm assuming they are referring to the fancy optic setup...

The rifle is obviously no more 'lethal' than the current L85A3, but it's lighter, simpler and obviously has all the benefits of the AR platform, all wrapped up in the ultimate gas impingement variation.

The Optic and the suppressor

Knights Armament make a superb AR...

Agreed. There's a reason Stoner's name is usually in the model designation.

It has a UK connection, as Edger Brothers are assembling them from kits in the UK before probably going to Birmingham for proof.

That requires no great skills, as anyone who knows the platform will tell you, easy to strip to component parts and assemble.

As far as I'm aware, they're just putting the optic and the suppressor on, that's as far as the "assembling" goes.


Can't help thinking this is just somebodies vanity project though. Why else would they require only AR-15 based designs?

I stand corrected, I thought it was assembled from kits?

A good armourer could assemble, head space and test fire an AR from component parts in about 30 minutes or less without breaking a sweat.

Re the AR designs, if it isn't broken, why fix it?

Consider the layout, everything falls naturally to hand, KA further improve the base design with not only an ambidexterous selector, but also bolt release.

Add to that the refined trigger, as the standard mil spec AR trigger is quite frankly a bit crap, with an indistinct 5/6 lb break.

I think someone in procurement has actually made a good decision for once!!

[marktigger]

With the change in ammunition comming up was it really cost effective to get these at this time?

[BB85]

According to the post the UK has no intention of selecting the new US round. I'm not convinced its performance is significant enough to justify it as a replacement considering the extra cost and complexity of the round.
I'm sure the army has spent a lot of time analysing the lessons learned in Ukraine, Iraq and Afghanistan before making this decision.

[NickC]

With the change in ammunition comming up was it really cost effective to get these at this time?

Very doubtful if the new US Army 6.8 mm will ever replace the 5.56, it might replace the 7.62 in time.

[mrclark303]

With the change in ammunition comming up was it really cost effective to get these at this time?

Very doubtful if the new US Army 6.8 mm will ever replace the 5.56, it might replace the 7.62 in time.

After many false starts, this is actually underway as replacement for 5.56 with ' teeth elements '. That said, 5.56mm is also remaining on issue as a secondary standard calibre for other duties for decades to come, so the trusty M4 is going absolutely nowhere.

The UK will carry on with the 5.56/7.62 mix for another 10 years.....

[NickC]

With the change in ammunition comming up was it really cost effective to get these at this time?

Very doubtful if the new US Army 6.8 mm will ever replace the 5.56, it might replace the 7.62 in time.

After many false starts, this is actually underway as replacement for 5.56 with ' teeth elements '. That said, 5.56mm is also remaining on issue as a secondary standard calibre for other duties for decades to come, so the trusty M4 is going absolutely nowhere.

The UK will carry on with the 5.56/7.62 mix for another 10 years.....

Have as yet seen no other army than US express an interest in equipping their "teeth elements" with the new 6.8 assault rifle, though more armies as the UK are updating their 5.56 assault rifles e.g. Germany acquiring the latest version of the HK416 and Poland procuring an additional 70,000 locally manufactured 5.56 Grot rifles.

My impression is that the drawbacks of the 6.8, the weight of the ammo and the large cost of the rifles to tame the recoil of the full powered round just too expensive and out way any benefits.

[mrclark303]

With the change in ammunition comming up was it really cost effective to get these at this time?

Very doubtful if the new US Army 6.8 mm will ever replace the 5.56, it might replace the 7.62 in time.

After many false starts, this is actually underway as replacement for 5.56 with ' teeth elements '. That said, 5.56mm is also remaining on issue as a secondary standard calibre for other duties for decades to come, so the trusty M4 is going absolutely nowhere.

The UK will carry on with the 5.56/7.62 mix for another 10 years.....

Have as yet seen no other army than US express an interest in equipping their "teeth elements" with the new 6.8 assault rifle, though more armies as the UK are updating their 5.56 assault rifles e.g. Germany acquiring the latest version of the HK416 and Poland procuring an additional 70,000 locally manufactured 5.56 Grot rifles.

My impression is that the drawbacks of the 6.8, the weight of the ammo and the large cost of the rifles to tame the recoil of the full powered round just too expensive and out way any benefits.

You have a point, it only becomes viable when Uncle Sam has 600,000 M8's under contract and they are widely issued.

Let Uncle Sam spent the development money and do maturity tweaking over the next 5/10 years, other firearms manufacturers will also develop new rifles for the calibre and we can pick and choose 'way down' the road.....

[Little J]

Let Uncle Sam spent the development money and do maturity tweaking over the next 5/10 years, other firearms manufacturers will also develop new rifles for the calibre and we can pick and choose 'way down' the road.....

Or not, because its probably sidelined

[mrclark303]

Let Uncle Sam spent the development money and do maturity tweaking over the next 5/10 years, other firearms manufacturers will also develop new rifles for the calibre and we can pick and choose 'way down' the road.....

Or not, because its probably sidelined

Who knows, I doubt it personally, it's got that 'F35' feeling to it now it's now shifting along and probably it's to big to fail.

At least we can wait and see how it all pans out.

[Little J]

Curious, how do you think its to big to fail? Lockheed were smart with F-35, they had part's built in so many states that no senator would be brave enough to kill it. An experimental bullet doesn't have that.

[leonard]

A picture of the new rifle with the list of all it accessories
https://x.com/StickGoesBoomm/status/170 ... 89291?s=20

[Andy-M]

The Royal Marines have adopted not only another new rifle, but a new calibre as well, 6.5 Creedmoor.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/202 ... x-leupold/

[NickC]

Problems encountered under testing with the US Army's new Sig Sauer 6.5mm NGSW, not surprised as pushing the envelope of full powered rounds as it operates at approx. 30% higher pressure than the Lapua 338 magnum rounds

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/09/arm ... -problems/

[RunningStrong]

The Royal Marines have adopted not only another new rifle, but a new calibre as well, 6.5 Creedmoor.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/202 ... x-leupold/

Absolutely bonkers decision unless they're adopting it for a LMG too.

[Little J]

The Royal Marines have adopted not only another new rifle, but a new calibre as well, 6.5 Creedmoor.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/202 ... x-leupold/

Absolutely bonkers decision unless they're adopting it for a LMG too.

I hope so...

[RunningStrong]

I hope so...

I'd hope so too. That would put them ahead of the curve in many respects, but already going 6.5 disconnects from 7.68/6.8, might as well go all in. Especially if it can be converted to either in the case we end up slaved to in-theatre US supply chains.

[NickC]

Wikipedia notes on the military use of the 6.5mm Creedmoor (case based on the 7.62 shortened by 2.4mm to 48.8mm with smaller dia. bullet with a better ballistic coefficient)

In October 2017, U.S. Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) tested the performance of 7.62×51mm NATO (M118LR long-range 7.62×51mm NATO load), .260 Remington, and 6.5mm Creedmoor cartridges out of SR-25, M110A1, and Mk 20 Sniper Support Rifle (SSR) rifles. SOCOM determined 6.5 Creedmoor performed the best, doubling hit-probability at 1,000 m (1,094 yd), increasing effective range by nearly half, reducing wind drift by a third, with less recoil than 7.62×51mm NATO rounds.//

In April 2020 the United States Department of Defense decided to replace the Mk13 .300 Winchester Magnum sniper rifle with a 20-inch (510 mm) barrel, semi-automatic AR-10 platform chambered in 6.5 mm Creedmoor and ammunition for engagements from 0 to 1,200 yards (0 to 1,097 m).[44]

In August 2023, Geissele Automatics announced its design had been selected for USSOCOM's Mid-Range Gas Gun Sniper (MRGG-S) program. The objective statement called for a rifle chambered in 6.5 mm Creedmoor with accuracy of 0.5-1.0 MOA at 100 yd (91 m) and weighing less than 10.5 lb (4.8 kg).

[Poiuytrewq]

Absolutely bonkers decision unless they're adopting it for a LMG too.

Why?

[BB85]

It's a drain on logistics is the obvious reason why.
He wasn't criticising the round itself.
If the LMG's are equipped with 7.62 what is going to happen when the designated marksman needs resupplied with 6.5 and all he can find is crates of 7.62?

[mrclark303]

It's a drain on logistics is the obvious reason why.
He wasn't criticising the round itself.
If the LMG's are equipped with 7.62 what is going to happen when the designated marksman needs resupplied with 6.5 and all he can find is crates of 7.62?

Now I didn't see that one coming, a curious decision.....
As you say, adding another calibre just muddies the water, it's not a massive step change from 7.62x51mm in capability and keeping commonality with GPMG would be more important for me...
5.65mm
7.62mm
.50 BMG
9mm

Covers your small arms calibers, I can't see much point adding another calibre.....

[Little J]

lol... You want to change to 6.8 but not 6.5???

[mr.fred]

If the LMG's are equipped with 7.62 what is going to happen when the designated marksman needs resupplied with 6.5 and all he can find is crates of 7.62?

That's a pretty fringe "what if". The marksman isn't going to be breaking down linked ammunition for rifle use unless things have really gone sideways, and at that point there's probably a regular rifle going spare.

[Poiuytrewq]

It's a drain on logistics is the obvious reason why.
He wasn't criticising the round itself.
If the LMG's are equipped with 7.62 what is going to happen when the designated marksman needs resupplied with 6.5 and all he can find is crates of 7.62?

Is it obvious?

Do you want your designated marksman to actually hit something or just miss it by a smaller margin? Breaking down link will ensure the later.

I understand the emergency argument but you could say the same about 338lapua.

The 6.5CM is the optimal choice as the case is slightly shorter than the 7.62x51. This allows longer bullets in the mag and therefore gives the potential to increase both ballistic coefficient and sectional density if VLD or very low drag projectiles are used.

The sectional density is what defeats body armour not just energy alone. As the velocity increases and the sectional density remains the same the penetration performance improves.

The 6.5x51 would give more velocity than the 6.5CM due to the longer case length and corresponding larger case volume but the length of the projectiles would have to be shorter to fit in the mag losing the benefits of VLDs.

It’s a great choice but it’s the 7.62x51 that now needs to be phased out in the GPMG, ideally to be replaced by 338Norma.

Worth bringing the Minimi back for 6.5CM especially if the GPMG moved up to 338Norma.

[mrclark303]

lol... You want to change to 6.8 but not 6.5???

Sorry, are you referring to me??

I'm not advocating a change of calibre yet, not for another 10 or so years

Secondly, there is a huge difference in energy between 6.5 and 6.8x51mm.