Section Infantry Weapons

[SKB]

[marktigger]

[ArmChairCivvy]

One could expect better casing (and a new push) for the intermediate caliber now that Lapua and Berger are part of the same Group (Nammo):

http://www.bergerbullets.com/products/tactical-bullets/

Grendel field trials have normally ended up with the conclusion that the tendency for reloading malfunction counters the benefits of its ballistic excellence; funnily enough the Russian round of the same dimensions has not exhibited the same behaviour (so the conclusion must be [?] that the problems stem from retrofit criteria driving design).

As per usual, TonyWilliams seems to be on top of the topic (the quote is not from his own forum, though):

" I note that they have recently shown a part-polymer .338 Lapua Magnum case, with the metal part being aluminium rather than brass. That should achieve a further significant weight reduction.

I think that it is only a matter of time before the part-polymer cases enter service (if it hasn't happened already - they have been exhaustively tested by the USMC in .50 cal).

The .264 USA is still in the frame as a future general-purpose round AFAIK, but everyone is now awaiting the outcome of the US small arms Caliber Configuration Study, due "some time in 2016".["]

Any takers for this weight saving? Could the update of our own AR now in progress be the end of the line for it?
L: 264 USA
(Brass case)
R: 264 USA
(Polymer case
-
28
-[to]
31% lighter
)
Source: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2015smallarms/17354_Schatz.pdf

[Little J]

Interesting pdf, I did chuckle when I got to page 11 and saw the drawn figure holding a SA80 A2.... Yanks to adopt?

[ArmChairCivvy]

US small arms Caliber Configuration Study, due "some time in 2016"

Has this come out yet? I think it might be the 900 pages referred to in the Mattis confirmation hearing (only three dozen being about the tech spec).

[marktigger]

just a shame they couldn't get caseless ammo to work

[bobp]

How about biodegradable bullets.. http://www.zdnet.com/article/us-militar ... to-plants/

[whitelancer]

I do wonder if the search for an intermediate calibre is something of a chimera. As I see it any chosen calibre is a compromise between many different factors. Each will have its advantages and disadvantages with no single calibre being the ideal in all situations. Wouldn't it be better to accept the fact that we will need weapons with different calibres for different tasks rather than trying to settle on one calibre for everything.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Wouldn't it be better to accept the fact that we will need weapons with different calibres for different tasks

Enlarging on that point, at section level:

The holy grail is to find a calibre that could unify the ammo carried (and shared) at that level. That effort hotting up again exactly for the need for *different* more specialised, weapons. More exactly, add the part polymer, part aluminium casing to the equation, to use the weight saving for allowing such weapons to be carried: rifle grenades, CGs... what have you. Some armies have anti-armour weapons with every third infantry man (several in a section) and the next-level up in the organisation would better that, not for the quantity, but for "calibre" - penetration and range - for the tougher cases. Then in arty, at battle group level 105/120 might be fine (mobility and logs vs. reach), but at the next level up it is not "fine" anymore, because you would not want to leave the opfor with an overmatch? etc

[RunningStrong]

I do wonder if the search for an intermediate calibre is something of a chimera. As I see it any chosen calibre is a compromise between many different factors. Each will have its advantages and disadvantages with no single calibre being the ideal in all situations. Wouldn't it be better to accept the fact that we will need weapons with different calibres for different tasks rather than trying to settle on one calibre for everything.

I would perhaps suggest a different angle, in that I believe there is a need to maintain ammo commonality within the weapons carried at section level.

However, what I think we should do is review the demand for a single standard issue rifle type. Why not have a 2-fleet option, example a 5.56 and 7.62 that could be selected based on the environment. 556 in more urban conflicts, 762 in more open country. Maintenance rifles are already available is both calibre's so commonality of parts and training should be significant.

[Little J]

However, what I think we should do is review the demand for a single standard issue rifle type. Why not have a 2-fleet option, example a 5.56 and 7.62 that could be selected based on the environment. 556 in more urban conflicts, 762 in more open country. Maintenance rifles are already available is both calibre's so commonality of parts and training should be significant.

Are you thinking one receiver for both calibres: Colt 901, FN Scar (although I've yet to see the common receiver) or Desert Tech MDR (if they finally get development sorted)? Or any two rifles that are in those calibres?

[ArmChairCivvy]

(although I've yet to see the common receiver)

We got half-way there in 2013 with the release of A3 version:

"The new [Beretta] ARX-160 A3 now comes available with three different barrel lenghts rather than just two, making it even more versatile.
The ARX-160 A3 is one of the most versatile, highly modular assault rifles available on the global market today

The cocking handle and spent cases ejection on the Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle can be converted from left-hand to right-hand operation, once again on the field by the user, without tools and in seconds; furthermore, the ARX-160 A3 features a bolt head that will remain compatible with all assault rifle calibers whose case doesn't exceed 45mm in lenght; this means that magazine and barrel change is all it takes to shift the ARX-160 A3 from the native 5.56x45mm NATO caliber to the Remington 6.8x43mm Special Purposes Cartridge; by changing both the barrel and the lower receiver, the ARX-160 A3 can also be converted to chamber and fire 7.62x39mm M43 caliber rounds, and to feed through AK-47/AKM-style magazines."

https://www.all4shooters.com/en/Shootin ... DSEi-2013/

[marktigger]

the more complicated you make a system the more likely it is to fail. A rifle that can take 2 calibres great in theory but what happens when you move from an enviroment that you need the reach of 7.62 into an Urban area where you think 5.56 excels? Then there is the issue of ordering ammo or spare parts. Sheer cock up theory of warfare you have a platoon house like in afghan under seige equipped with 7.62 and by mistake they are delivered 5.56?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Who said complicated? Most parts are exactly the same.

Now, what could you use the longest barrel for; let me think...
"Among the wildcat versions of the .338 Lapua Magnum, the 6.5-338 Lapua remains possible the as the fastest. Originally designed in Finland, it has to be one of the highest velocity cartridges in this bore size.
The 6.5-338 is necked down from the .338 Lapua Magnum case to the 6.5 mm (.264 caliber) bullet. The shoulders are pushed back somewhat, and the body taper is reduced by fireforming. In its finished form, the case body is almost cylindrical. The final case capacity is slightly greater than that of the parent .338 Lapua Magnum.
The ballistic performance is impressive, to say the least! With top loads, a 9 g (139 grs) Scenar HPBT bullet will leave muzzle at an incredible 1150 mps (3780 fps). By comparison, the 6.5-284 will shoot that same bullet with about 930 mps (3050 fps) muzzle velocity."

Thats from Lapua company pages; there are many side stories there what else was is in the works, besides the already established Lapua Magnum that is used in rifles dedicated to one purpose only.

[RunningStrong]

the more complicated you make a system the more likely it is to fail. A rifle that can take 2 calibres great in theory but what happens when you move from an enviroment that you need the reach of 7.62 into an Urban area where you think 5.56 excels? Then there is the issue of ordering ammo or spare parts. Sheer cock up theory of warfare you have a platoon house like in afghan under seige equipped with 7.62 and by mistake they are delivered 5.56?

The decision could be made on a theatre level and thus you would be making the logistical areas way, way up stream from there and more effective at correction.

It would potentially mean that some operators would be operating with the sub-optimum calibre for their role, but that's already the case and instead we're left with mixed rifle calibre's within units.

[marktigger]

could the new french rifle be the new British one to?

[Little J]

They had an article on www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/ about Germany and France doing a joint order, we got a mention too but there was no source to link us to it. Maybe it was just the author speculating?

When it is time to replace the SA80, I just hope they do a full and fair competition with no pre-arranged deals.

[Little J]

Desert-Tech promo vid for the MDR, what do you all as a possible SA80 replacement?

[ArmChairCivvy]

A nice one, also for the thread on field upgradeability

[marktigger]

suspect the replacement won't be a bullpup

[ArmChairCivvy]

Are you detecting a trend?

[ArmChairCivvy]

France will be getting most of their just under 100k HKs with fairly short barrels - no culture shock, after having used bulpups for 30 years?

More interestingly, 10% will have under barel grenade launchers and 15% will (also) be
14 915 pieces will be “Felinaized“.

“FÉLIN” (Fantassin à Équipement et Liaisons Intégrés) translates to about “Integrated Infantryman Equipment and Communications”, which is the French Infantry Combat System. I’m not sure exactly what that means in terms of specification for the HK416F, but my understanding is that this is a higher grade, potentially with Night vision capability, or a batch going to special units.

Fireamrsblog does not know; but Frenchie can tell us what that means? Felin is being rolled out faster than any other future soldier system (in Europe, at least).

[Frenchie]

The HK416 will have the ability to fire all types of ammunition 5.56 NATO standard, rifle grenades, 40 mm low speed grenades. It will integrate itself into the FELIN system and into the means of simulation of the armies.
The new rifle will have an adjustable and foldable butt. It will be adapted to the ergonomics of the soldier, that can be positioned to take into account the morphology of the shooters, and a strap compatible with the new instruction concerning tactical shooting. It will even be equipped with a bipod, and will mainly benefit from rails around the barrel allowing to adapt all the devices of night vision and precision, which we do not have on the FAMAS. His bayonet will also be perfected.

The FELIN is that, i don't know if it is the more sophisticated system but the French army says so.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Thanks Frenchie, as sensors are now considered as integral parts of the weapons, I dare to offer this comment under the "section" thread
- the Felin is very advanced but that also makes it power hungry. Not a problem when you dismount from the vehicle (lots of power and facilities to connect) but when you have a prolonged spell on foot, one in the section is actually carrying a rucksack with fuel-cell technology, to keep the whole section "fully charged up"
- ours comes more from the personal protection angle, with an explicit dvlpmnt brief to get the weight down. There are still problems with retaining the same mobility/ agility that you would have without the kit... but we will see. Mk 1 is always followed by Mk 2 which may, or may not, be better

[ArmChairCivvy]

Not exactly (limited to being only) a section weapon - but for everybody for last ditch defence, namely a pistol.

It is widely speculated that the new one selected by the US Army will be rolled out in 9mm; I wonder why, when
- the SIG 357 shoots flatter (accurate further out), and
- has better penetration with the exception of steel (http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_D ... TocId76387)
than the 9mm?