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F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.

How do you feel about the F-35B for the RN and RAF? (2 votes per member)

GOOD choice for the Royal Navy
120
44%
BAD choice for the Royal Navy
11
4%
Uncertain (RN)
14
5%
GOOD choice for the Royal Air Force
51
19%
BAD choice for the Royal Air Force
37
14%
Uncertain (RAF)
40
15%
 
Total votes: 273

Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 10 May 2019, 17:02

Speculation that the F-35 may have ruled itself out of the Canadian competition....with Rafale already excluded and Boeing in the doghouse (surely politically unacceptable for the next few years following the Bombardier furore) that would leave Eurofighter and Saab with a free run....

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national ... h-the-f-35

serge750
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby serge750 » 10 May 2019, 17:49

Well it would be great if the Typhoon won but i'm not holding my breath...new build stealthy hornets maybe....I've always liked the Gripen though !

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby SKB » 18 May 2019, 17:37


Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 19 May 2019, 20:48

I think I guess why Marham is costing that much to upgrade now...


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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby bobp » 19 May 2019, 21:59

Yes state of the art facilities, there is also a computer centre for ALIS and mission planning I believe.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 20 May 2019, 11:24

I cannot see why they could have refurbished one or more of the existing hangers at Marham, they were modernised not that long ago along with the hard stands as were the two HAS complexes.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 21 May 2019, 10:34

This is interesting, didn't realise the F-15E was that different to the F-15C


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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 21 May 2019, 12:07




serge750
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby serge750 » 21 May 2019, 20:38

So good to see the F35 in service, Is it the whole squadron or just the 4 F35 we see in the vids? any indication of how long they will be Cyprus for before the westlant deployment in the autumn?

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 22 May 2019, 10:51

I've only seen 4 in the vids but apparently there are 6. Which given the size of the squadron at present and the need to maintain training in the UK plus it being the first deployment seems pretty good.




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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 22 May 2019, 10:53


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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 23 May 2019, 07:26

" They were flown by three RAF pilots and three RN pilots. "
- democracy in action :)

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SKB
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby SKB » 25 May 2019, 15:30


(Forces TV) 21st May 2019
F-35s from 617 Squadron have left the UK to deploy overseas for the very first time. Six of the fighter jets have left RAF Marham, bound for RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus. The aircraft will take part in Exercise LIGHTNING DAWN, where the crew's ability to work in different environments will be tested, as well as stepping up preparations for its first operational carrier deployment later this year.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 28 May 2019, 12:19

This is interesting...

Looks like the US is looking to gear up to integrate the JASSM, LRASM, JAGM and Hellfire. Total cost is $90m so this isn't a full integration effort, but is certainly the starting point and appears to be aimed at Block IV.

Couple of points to note:
- JASSM is USAF and Australia only as F-35 users (although Poland has just started the process of becoming an F-35 user) - This will make the Australian's very happy. USN does not use it. They use JSOW and JSOW-ER.
- It mentions JASSM. But not JASSM-ER which is the only version still in production. Or the forthcoming XR. Australia only has the standard JASSM. This is aimed at the legacy missile. Given the range and numbers in service this makes sense.
- LRASM integration would cover the USAF and USN as both use it. This would give F-35 users another AShM choice apart from JSM. This is the Increment 1 version of LRASM (i.e. based on JASSM). Again not the proposed LRASM-ER
- JAGM - Makes sense. But unusual as JAGM launch from fast jets has not been mentioned for a while, this would be the first instance of it.
- Hellfire - Why? Hellfire would need to be cleared for fast jet launch first, then integrated, for a weapon system that will be retired in due course. I suspect this will either be dropped or is seen as so straight forward after JAGM is integrated that they may as well add it to the list.
- Both Hellfire and JAGM are rail launched so would need to be adapted to be dropped from an internal bay before igniting, otherwise these are external pylon mounted stores only.

Implications for the UK
- LRASM on pylons could be a useful capability for UK F-35 as Storm Shadow will not be integrated. JSM would need to be carried on pylons anyway so LRASM would make more sense with its greater range, better land attack capability and warhead size. Given JSM's high cost I suspect LRASM will be competitive on price as well. A small number (say 50) would make an awful lot of sense for anti-shipping for QE and strike ops, particularly as I suspect FCASW will not be integrated onto F-35.
- The proposed LRASM-ER would be even better as an external store for F-35B. It would to all intents and purposes double the range at which QE could strike enemy vessels or land targets.
- JAGM and Hellfire have the same form factor as Brimstone. Could the US integration effort make integration of Brimstone more staightforward and cheap? It should be able to share some of the integration work with Spear in regard to the software integration.
- Brimstone may finally have a competitor at some point after 2025...15 years after it entered service.


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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 28 May 2019, 13:05

Timmymagic wrote: JASSM, LRASM, JAGM and Hellfire. Total cost is $90m so this isn't a full integration effort, but is certainly the starting point and appears to be aimed at Block IV.
IV has 4 blocks within it (though officially it is "iterative" and "agile" so no such thing :) applies anymore)
Timmymagic wrote:USN does not use it. They use JSOW and JSOW-ER.
They will soon change their mind as the less manoeurable glide bombs will not penetrate the defences... Iran's boghammers don't have any, so still "going currency" is such engagements. And much cheaper, per piece.
Timmymagic wrote:LRASM integration would cover the USAF and USN as both use it. This would give F-35 users another AShM choice apart from JSM. This is the Increment 1 version of LRASM (i.e. based on JASSM)
The Norgies will not be "absolutely delighted" as they went with the F-35 (OK, range and stealth did play their part) to be able to close the Norway-Svalbard gap... and be the prime supplier for AShM for any F-35 users that might have that rqrmnt
Timmymagic wrote:Hellfire and JAGM are rail launched so would need to be adapted to be dropped from an internal bay before igniting, otherwise these are external pylon mounted stores only.
What role does stealth (external pylon mounting being non-stealth) have in CAS? As both are CAS weapons
Timmymagic wrote:as I suspect FCASW will not be integrated onto F-35
No point, it is for rotary and be able to reach inland, e.g. in support of SF ops where carriers are a mile and a continent away (from the scene)
Timmymagic wrote:JAGM and Hellfire have the same form factor as Brimstone. Could the US integration effort make integration of Brimstone more staightforward and cheap?
Is it not a repeating theme that the US run exhaustive trials with anything that brings a new game along, like Brimstone, and then always say: nahh, we'll build our own (JAGM in this case)?

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 28 May 2019, 14:05

ArmChairCivvy wrote:IV has 4 blocks within it (though officially it is "iterative" and "agile" so no such thing applies anymore)


I based it more on the 5 year contract, looks like it will conclude just when Block IV starts.

ArmChairCivvy wrote:They will soon change their mind as the less manoeurable glide bombs will not penetrate the defences... Iran's boghammers don't have any, so still "going currency" is such engagements. And much cheaper, per piece.


Don't forget the JSOW-ER is powered. It's modular payload is a great idea as well.

ArmChairCivvy wrote:The Norgies will not be "absolutely delighted" as they went with the F-35 (OK, range and stealth did play their part) to be able to close the Norway-Svalbard gap... and be the prime supplier for AShM for any F-35 users that might have that rqrmnt


Yep. I expect they're spitting feathers..particularly as although LRASM is likely to be slightly more expensive, its bigger, longer ranged and has more utility for land attack. The other potential purchaser for JSM is Australia, who are paying for integration of JSM to P-8. They're also a JASSM user....this could restrict any Australian JSM orders as a result....
In my mind this also kills off the Turkish SOM cruise missile as a likely armament. Not that I thought anyone outside of Turkey would buy it anyway, and with the Turks to be ejected in due course I suspect it will disappear from the line-up.

ArmChairCivvy wrote:What role does stealth (external pylon mounting being non-stealth) have in CAS? As both are CAS weapons


True. But the US has to date qualified most of the weapons for external and internal carry with the exception of 9X. Can't understand why they'd bother with Hellfire though..Drop launch has been talked about in relation to JAGM as it makes life a lot easier for Tilt-Rotor employment on V-22 and V-247 (and any other TERN candidates).

ArmChairCivvy wrote:No point, it is for rotary and be able to reach inland, e.g. in support of SF ops where carriers are a mile and a continent away (from the scene)


FCASW is the Storm Shadow/SCALP/Exocet replacement programme (Future Cruise Anti-Ship Weapon) from MBDA. Sometimes called Perseus which was an MBDA concept for a similar weapon. You're thinking of Sea Venom (FASGW(H))

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Is it not a repeating theme that the US run exhaustive trials with anything that brings a new game along, like Brimstone, and then always say: nahh, we'll build our own (JAGM in this case)?


They've not really trialled Brimstone. They did observe the Reaper and Apache E trials recently and do some preliminary work on F-18 integration after observing the original Tornado trials. But JAGM has taken an age, going through the abortive JCM programme. It doesn't have a Tri-Mode seeker anymore, doesn't have the range of Brimstone 2 or 3 and (until now) the fast jet launch capability appeared to have been parked. Given the cross-over between JAGM and SDBII you have to wonder why they're bothering. I do wonder if it will go forward into full integration as a result.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 28 May 2019, 14:37

Timmymagic wrote:will conclude just when Block IV starts.

That's when we will be asked for the "ransom" money :)
Timmymagic wrote:You're thinking of Sea Venom (FASGW(H))

Time to insert a few swearwords about these accronyms... of course none would be suitable for "print" :D
Timmymagic wrote:It doesn't have a Tri-Mode seeker anymore, doesn't have the range of Brimstone 2 or 3 and (until now) the fast jet launch capability appeared to have been parked. Given the cross-over between JAGM and SDBII you have to wonder why they're bothering.

- well, it keeps coming back. And they keep not buying anybody else's "stuff"

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 28 May 2019, 15:49

ArmChairCivvy wrote:That's when we will be asked for the "ransom" money

ArmChairCivvy wrote:- well, it keeps coming back. And they keep not buying anybody else's "stuff"


That's why I'm a believer in only buying 90 odd F-35B (93 would be nice as it would give us 90 operational a/c, who doesn't like round numbers..) and buying some additional Typhoon to keep the line running longer until we get stuck in to Tempest. The US will look after its own interests not only in the aviation field, but also on the munitions front. The ITAR restrictions on other sales are enough reason alone to want independence from US supplies.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 10 Jun 2019, 11:54

It looks like the recent Japanese fatal F-35 crash was a CFT. The recovery effort seems to have ceased following the recovery of the pilots remains.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-48578178

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 10 Jun 2019, 12:00

Some lovely photos here:




Timmymagic
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 10 Jun 2019, 12:25

Timmymagic wrote:It looks like the recent Japanese fatal F-35 crash was a CFT. The recovery effort seems to have ceased following the recovery of the pilots remains.


This might be the reason why they're not spending an age on the recovery effort. Near vertical crash into the ocean at m0.9 from 14,000 ft. There probably isn't much left of the aircraft apart from very small pieces.

http://alert5.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/0005.jpg

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby sunstersun » 11 Jun 2019, 20:09

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKCN1TB27T

81 mil a plane next year.

Lower than 80 the next 2 years.


Also Turkey is getting booted from the F-35 program, so that means countries like Poland can get planes on a way accelerated schedule.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby bobp » 11 Jun 2019, 20:17

sunstersun wrote:81 mil a plane next year.


The article states that as the forecast price for the F35A, the B version will be a lot more, due to its unique lift fan and additional engine parts. Poland have asked for their F35A models as soon as possible, so diverting them from Turkeys quota makes some sense.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby SW1 » 11 Jun 2019, 23:09

Timmymagic wrote:It looks like the recent Japanese fatal F-35 crash was a CFT. The recovery effort seems to have ceased following the recovery of the pilots remains.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-48578178


A troubling conclusion seems a convenient scape goat blaming the pilot when we can’t ask him considering they have little evidence on which to base such a clear cut conclusion on as they could not get data from the flight data recorders. You would think a plane as sophisticated as f35 would have a override to protect the pilot and get to steady level flight like others do.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 12 Jun 2019, 10:36

SW1 wrote:You would think a plane as sophisticated as f35 would have a override to protect the pilot and get to steady level flight like others do.


There aren't any that deploy automatically though, the MiG-29 one was a button press that resulted in a wings level, low rate of climb. But it still needed the pilot to select it. The danger is when the pilot is unaware of the conditions.


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