UK Defence Forum

(Navy Lookout/RFA Tideforce) 11th November 2019

Jet takes off from HMS Queen Elizabeth while Replenishment at Sea underway with RFA Tideforce

cockneyjock1974 wrote:I take it from episode 3, SRVL is a tricky one. Or perhaps artistic licence from the director. Is it the case that SRVL can only be performed in calm seas/weather or were they playing it cautious?
If anybody can throw some light on this, it would be good. I just hope it’s not a red hearing. I Just feel it should be the norm for QE class landings, engine wear and tear alone.

Don't forget that the flight trials start with a very small, conservative flight envelope and gradually expand it through flying different profiles. Not only would they want the first attempt to be within the permitted envelope for safety reasons but they also needed need it to match the test perimeters so that they can reliably draw conclusions from the data. Coming in too high, too low, too slow, too fast in the early attempts could render the data useless.

The other role of the test pilots is write the book and refine the procedures for other pilots. Everything will have been tested in simulators and on land but inevitably when they get out to the ship they'll discover some areas that need to be tweaked.

In the later stages of testing they can sometimes skip ahead - e.g. when they exploited the bad weather in the previous episode to demonstrate capability in a higher sea state than was planned for that stage of testing.

cpu121 wrote:In the later stages of testing they can sometimes skip ahead - e.g. when they exploited the bad weather in the previous episode to demonstrate capability in a higher sea state than was planned for that stage of testing.

I'm guessing , but I suspect the bad weather was a little early for an SRVL in bad weather. They did mention 20 SRVL's in the programme so its more than likely that they have primarily been done with regard to different speeds, different wind of deck etc. Its doubtful if they were confident enough with those limited number of flights to try much heavier weights or adverse conditions. Be interesting to see if they attempted it at night though.

Thanks for the replies, my naivety, of course they’ll play it safe to start with and as per strict parameters. A question I’ve long thought about and will probably never know due to OPSEC reasons, is can a fully laden (fuel & weapons) F35B take off from the deck of the QE class? If so I would imagine take off would be much closer to the stern.

Is it possible that they are still in the testing stage to establish operating parameters of the aricraft from the carrier ,another benchmark to be be looked forward to is when one hundred f35b sorties are achieved in a day from the carrier possibly with 24 aircraft

Don't forget a lot of testing has been done on land regarding take of weights, but there is nothing like the real thing.

Similar to what I've heard as well, although time/date is not confirmed due to tides and the weather.

HMS Queen Elizabeth

@HMSQNLZ
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6h


11 years between these pictures; the RN has today again launched a jet from a carrier whilst replenishing at sea. This force-multiplier shows the Service's transformation in that time; Invincible to QE class, Wave to Tide class and Harrier to Lightning #WESTLANT19 #backinthegame

This looks like a very useful capability that I imagine would be difficult for a CATOBAR carrier? Along with previous images of 2 F35 landing at the same time some very good force multipliers seem to be brought into use.

Photos for above post by jcs1959

Many thanks for that SKB. Not sure why they didn't load but maybe to do with being from the slide rule generation! Still shows that a RAS won't always stop fast jet flying from the carrier.

The main constraint of RAS is that you are sailing on a fixed bearing and a fixed speed for a long time (could be up to 5 hours).

Of course you need to ensure that you have clear seas ahead of you for the full time of RAS and, if possible, you choose a bearing that is into the wind direction. But wind directions often shift over time.

Flight operations during RAS will depend upon what wind over deck is needed for any launch; during RAS you're stuck with what you've got.

Yes indeed that is true but is even that possible with CATOBAR carriers. Also with the double fuel lines now in use is a RAS always still going to be so time consuming?

During training and testing, RAS requirements are dominated by fuel (and food).

During operations, RAS requirements are dominated by ammunition.

RAS will take place when the magazines / fuel tanks are depleted. Given the size of both on QEC, RAS is always likely to take a good few hours.

The planning assumptions are based around having to supply a QEC operating 36 F35s with X days of fuel and ammunition within a X hours RAS period. From this it was concluded that
1. Fuel RAS and solid stores RAS would need to be conducted simultaneously, on either side of the ship.
2. Fuel RAS would need double fuel lines on two RAS stations.
3. Solid stores RAS would need two heavy (5 T) RAS stations.

Given the reported issues with affordability of FSS, some of these assumptions maybe reviewed or relaxed.

(@HMSQNLZ) 12th November 2019

Welcome to the Queen Elizabeth Carrier Strike Group, USS Philippine Sea and USS Truxtun @USNavy. The Ticonderoga-class guided missile cruiser and Arleigh Burke-class destroyer have joined us as #UKF35 jet trials continue in the USA

Great pictures SKB.

cockneyjock1974 wrote:Thanks for the replies, my naivety, of course they’ll play it safe to start with and as per strict parameters. A question I’ve long thought about and will probably never know due to OPSEC reasons, is can a fully laden (fuel & weapons) F35B take off from the deck of the QE class? If so I would imagine take off would be much closer to the stern.

I notice from the latest photos there are no skid marks from tyres on the deck which would indicate there have been no SRVL landings so far this trip.

It would be interesting to know if there are more planned for later in the trip or there are issues that came up last year that have to be overcome.

SKB wrote:Photos for above post by jcs1959

The RN are being very thorough in going through the family photo album and recreating the most treasured images.

Still to do; side view of both QE carriers steaming ahead and a QE carrier flirting with two Nimitz class.

As for the FSS ships with this election I expect BJ to promise 4 built in British yards, JC to promise 5 built by the winner of a referendum and NS to promise 6 all built in Leith. JS will say we won't need them as we can rely on our European allies.

Nice pair of photos. Perhaps also an explanation to why the number of helos carried on the latest batch of tankers has gone lower in priorities... as they don't anymore have to compensate for 'overcrowded' hangars on the ships that they support

Perhaps also an explanation to why the number of helos carried on the latest batch of tankers has gone lower in priorities

You must be thinking of the Forts, actually. And we don't really know how many helos would be on the new Solid Support Ships. I think 2-3 Merlin spaces will still be in the requirement.
As for the tankers, the Tide tankers are better equipped for helos now than they were before, considering that the ROVERs had no hangar at all...

Seems like PWLS is playing around off Devon, still no official entry time/date from my lad but lead to be believe from past updates it could be very soon.

PoW's AIS is back on.
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/ho ... .4/zoom:11

Aethelwulf, totally agree with all you say about RAS, even with the new transfer capabilities of the Tides and future FSS. I suspect the ability to launch F35 during RAS is more about CAP aircraft on alert 5 or 20 if needed and not about launching strike packages.

Of course you wouldn't plan your RAS within the operational area anyway as has always been the case.

According to MarineTraffice there are a couple of German Naval vessels in and around PWLS and her current position, possible photo opportunity?

QHM update for Thursday Shipping movements shows no sign of the channels being closed around the midday HW mark, so that's one of the days my lad told me PWLS might come home crossed off the list. MarineTraffic has her moving away from Torbay and heading towards Portland now.