Ground Based Air Defence

[zavve]

Why not mount CAMM on BvS10? It's the same design as the BvS410 which carries IRIS-T SL in the Eldenhet 98 configuration. CAMM is not much bigger than IRIS-T, so that would be a good option.

[new guy]

what? you still make no sense,
you arre saying have CAMM alongside CAMM.

I think he means that we should have the Supacat (or other vehicle)-based launchers in addition to the MAN truck-based systems.

thanks, if so also doesn't make sense because he refers to sky sabre being 'static' but so is this ASRAAM system.

Two things. One having a couple of ASRAAM\CAMM strapped to the back of a Supacat maybe a little more mobile than a pack of CAMM on the back of a MAN HX. Shoot and Scoot. And Two ASRAAM has an IR seeker not Radar like CAMM so an IR seeker equipped CAMM maybe be of use in certain scenarios.

fair.

[BB85]

How many Skysabre batteries did the army order again, was it 24?
It's interesting that when Ukraine is at war we are able to produce this Supacat solution launching Asraam at extremely short notice and produce a heck of a lot more than 24 if we need to.
We have likely produced more NLAW missiles in the last 2 years than we have in the previous 10. We do have a lot of production capacity for things like Skysabre the government just chooses to under utilise it.
If we were at war ourselves I have no doubt skysabre could be mounted on many different options and very quickly the government only wants to fund the bare minimum from an R&D perspective to prove the concept and anything after comes from necessity.
One major worry is that if the UK production capacity was taken out on day one of any conflict we have absolutely nothing in reserve because the UK and pretty much all European countries expect the US to come to their rescue.

[tomuk]

How many Skysabre batteries did the army order again, was it 24?
It's interesting that when Ukraine is at war we are able to produce this Supacat solution launching Asraam at extremely short notice and produce a heck of a lot more than 24 if we need to.
We have likely produced more NLAW missiles in the last 2 years than we have in the previous 10. We do have a lot of production capacity for things like Skysabre the government just chooses to under utilise it.
If we were at war ourselves I have no doubt skysabre could be mounted on many different options and very quickly the government only wants to fund the bare minimum from an R&D perspective to prove the concept and anything after comes from necessity.
One major worry is that if the UK production capacity was taken out on day one of any conflict we have absolutely nothing in reserve because the UK and pretty much all European countries expect the US to come to their rescue.

Do we really have production resources? The Supacat solution looks very heath robinson with presumably old stock asraams mounted on what looks like fast jet mounting rails. ex Tornado or Typhoon?
On NLAW again these have been existing stocks with a small production run of 500 in 2023 and the thousands only being delivered by 2026 as production lines are reopened.

[Dahedd]

Thank you Tomuk. That's exactly what I meant. Surely the Supacat is far more mobile than thd truck based Landceptor system

[wargame_insomniac]

Great to see the building relationship between UK and Poland on GBAD.

If the Poles are to have 24 batteries, then I wonder how many we will have....

[marktigger]

With drones and the probability of swarm drone attacks shouldn't we also look at gun based systems to.
Some of the lessons from Israel and Ukraine show the limitations of pure missile systems and the need for layered systems. Where it might be more cost effective to expend a couple of 30mm cannon rounds to destroy a £300 Drone than use a £30-40,000 missile.

[RunningStrong]

With drones and the probability of swarm drone attacks shouldn't we also look at gun based systems to.
Some of the lessons from Israel and Ukraine show the limitations of pure missile systems and the need for layered systems. Where it might be more cost effective to expend a couple of 30mm cannon rounds to destroy a £300 Drone than use a £30-40,000 missile.

Well we've got 245 airburst capable CT40 cannons in storage...

[BB85]

Whatever happened to the turrets, were the Canons removed and handed back to the MOD with the rest of the turret scrapped by LM?

I am still hopefully they will be repurposed in an unmanned variant on boxer.

[SW1]

Do we think countering cheap commercial drones is going to be the preserve of specialist units?

I have a feeling it will need to be much more ubiquitous than that.

[RunningStrong]

Whatever happened to the turrets, were the Canons removed and handed back to the MOD with the rest of the turret scrapped by LM?

I am still hopefully they will be repurposed in an unmanned variant on boxer.

Only the warrior prototype turrets were made. There was never a production contract for them.

The guns were ordered separately by MoD.

[Caribbean]

Do we think countering cheap commercial drones is going to be the preserve of specialist units?

I have a feeling it will need to be much more ubiquitous than that.

This is where systems like the 30mm Venom could come into their own. Relatively cheap & mountable on pretty much any vehicle

[SW1]

Do we think countering cheap commercial drones is going to be the preserve of specialist units?

I have a feeling it will need to be much more ubiquitous than that.

This is where systems like the 30mm Venom could come into their own. Relatively cheap & mountable on pretty much any vehicle

It will need to be something along those lines on remote weapons stations on vehicles as part of the solution or a shell for the grenade launchers they use but I was thinking even more down to individual soldiers who will have some sort of shell in the grenade launcher on their rifle especially if they say the future is in urban warfare. Cheap commercial drones counters will not be a simple fix with a silver bullet moment.

[Pte. James Frazer]

The Army has procured this for the moment:

https://www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events ... %20weapons.

[RunningStrong]

The Army has procured this for the moment:

https://www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events ... %20weapons.

Great as that is, I can see there being a huge issue with suitable training locations and a willingness to issue a very Gucci piece of kit of of stores.

[Caribbean]

The Army has procured this for the moment:

https://www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events ... %20weapons.

225? What's that? One per platoon?

[Pte. James Frazer]

Dilemma...

Army hasn't embraced a Boxer-based Warrior IFV replacement yet...more back to the future APC-style battlefield taxi. Pre-Ukraine, in 2021 they contracted Thales UK/Kongsberg for 500 Protector RS4 RWS for those APCs etc...and looked like to be doubling down on the 50cal fit.

RS4 can't fit a low-recoil 30x113mm e.g. XM914/ADEN but a RS6 can...

Army hasn't for a long time had a gun-based VSHORAD system...but now Ukraine shows one is necessary probably at platoon/company level (see earlier post for squad/platoon-level individual weapon dismounted solution)

Army went for 40mm CTA which has airburst, but massive recoil (not compatible with RS4 or RS6) and v. exepnsive ammo. 245 going rusty. 30×113mm not in inventory, but a non-sovereign US business (NG) will happily sell us some (expensive) airburst ammo.

Is an interim solution (out to 2km) to get some XM914s with airburst on RS6 (contract modification to RS4 order perhaps)?

Medium term get the 245 ex Warrior 40mm CTA on to some turreted Boxers (elevation angle might be a problem) or go off-piste/Swiss and procure the Rheinmetall/Oerlikon 35mm..also with a fancy, expensive dedicated caliber ammo causing a loggie's headache?

Or wait for the fabled laser?

[wargame_insomniac]

The Army has procured this for the moment:

https://www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events ... %20weapons.

225? What's that? One per platoon?

I presume it is a trial run. In the article saus being given out to "Very High Readiness Ubuts" so sounds as if initially concentrated to a few units.

Lets hope it works out well in practice and that if so, can then be mre widely ordered fr general units.

[bobp]

So about 18K a sight seems excessive, I guess there will be more deliveries included in that price.

[Jdam]

[leonard]

And directly from the front lines of Ukraine this systems is going strong and they can't have enough !!!

[Little J]

The bodged together Supacat HMT / ASRAAM has achieved 90% hit success in Ukraine. Maybe it might be a good idea to have a few ourselves, to supplement the few assets that we currently have.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/the- ... ir-strikes

[new guy]

The bodged together Supacat HMT / ASRAAM has achieved 90% hit success in Ukraine. Maybe it might be a good idea to have a few ourselves, to supplement the few assets that we currently have.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/the- ... ir-strikes

Benifit over actual Sky Sabre or even supacat-CAMM, you know, the ground optimised version of ASRAAM?

[wargame_insomniac]

The bodged together Supacat HMT / ASRAAM has achieved 90% hit success in Ukraine. Maybe it might be a good idea to have a few ourselves, to supplement the few assets that we currently have.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/the- ... ir-strikes

Benifit over actual Sky Sabre or even supacat-CAMM, you know, the ground optimised version of ASRAAM?

Am I right in thinking that Land Ceptor launcher is using Mann 8*8 truck? Presumably Supacat vehicle is faster and more maneuverable?

In which case l presume British army would need both launchers, used in different formations?

[Little J]

The bodged together Supacat HMT / ASRAAM has achieved 90% hit success in Ukraine. Maybe it might be a good idea to have a few ourselves, to supplement the few assets that we currently have.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/the- ... ir-strikes

Benifit over actual Sky Sabre or even supacat-CAMM, you know, the ground optimised version of ASRAAM?

Am I right in thinking that Land Ceptor launcher is using Mann 8*8 truck? Presumably Supacat vehicle is faster and more maneuverable?

In which case l presume British army would need both launchers, used in different formations?

That is my thinking. I would suggest cost too, but I admit I'm unsure of unit costs for either system.