Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

[Ron5]

Shows the value of the Type 26 mission bay.

[marktigger]

makes sense trialling it on an alongside vessel as opposed to pulling one of taskings to do it. wonder what else is being tested before release to fleet? might save some headaches in the future,

[GibMariner]

HMS Diamond returned to Gibraltar on Monday.




Album here: https://flic.kr/s/aHskHZhN39

[The Armchair Soldier]

[ArmChairCivvy]

this capability they didn't had until now

Wrong facts, sorry

[abc123]

this capability they didn't had until now

Wrong facts, sorry

OK, so they had them. But is it more important than fixing bloody propulsion? It's like you have a car with engine that one day works and another isn't, but instead of investing to solve that, no you buy a new CD for radio or air freshner.

[abc123]

Is HMS Duncan fitted with Harpoons?

[shark bait]

OK, so they had them. But is it more important than fixing bloody propulsion? It's like you have a car with engine that one day works and another isn't, but instead of investing to solve that, no you buy a new CD for radio or air freshner.

Actually its more like having a car with an engine that is prone to overheating in the summer.

There used to be a problem with the power management system, but thats been fixed and we're now left waiting for an extra generate to fix the 'overheating' issue.

[RetroSicotte]

Is HMS Duncan fitted with Harpoons?

I believe so, yes. She was one of the ones getting fitted when I was on board.

Very pretty ship inside and out. I need to dig out those photos. You really don't realise how enormous the flight deck is on these new escorts till you're on them.

[GibMariner]

HMS Daring East of Suez.
HMS Dauntless in reserve.
HMS Diamond at Gibraltar.
HMS Dragon reportedly heading south to rendezvous with Russian corvettes en route from the Med.
HMS Defender in refit.
HMS Duncan in the Norwegian/North Sea escorting Russians.

FYI, significant Russian presence across the strait in Ceuta lately.

Very pretty ship inside and out. I need to dig out those photos. You really don't realise how enormous the flight deck is on these new escorts till you're on them.

Check out the album I posted above, some local photographers/enthusiasts got a pretty good look inside Diamond.

Edit: for reference https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidparo ... 3459702116

[shark bait]

Check out the album I posted above, some local photographers/enthusiasts got a pretty good look inside Diamond.

Edit: for reference https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidparo ... 3459702116

Nice!

I didn't realize this was a thing;

[abc123]

OK, so they had them. But is it more important than fixing bloody propulsion? It's like you have a car with engine that one day works and another isn't, but instead of investing to solve that, no you buy a new CD for radio or air freshner.

Actually its more like having a car with an engine that is prone to overheating in the summer.

There used to be a problem with the power management system, but thats been fixed and we're now left waiting for an extra generate to fix the 'overheating' issue.

You forgot to say that you mostly use that car during summer.

[abc123]

HMS Daring East of Suez.
HMS Dauntless in reserve.
HMS Diamond at Gibraltar.
HMS Dragon reportedly heading south to rendezvous with Russian corvettes en route from the Med.
HMS Defender in refit.
HMS Duncan in the Norwegian/North Sea escorting Russians.

[marktigger]

OK, so they had them. But is it more important than fixing bloody propulsion? It's like you have a car with engine that one day works and another isn't, but instead of investing to solve that, no you buy a new CD for radio or air freshner.

Actually its more like having a car with an engine that is prone to overheating in the summer.

There used to be a problem with the power management system, but thats been fixed and we're now left waiting for an extra generate to fix the 'overheating' issue.

You forgot to say that you mostly use that car during summer.

yes operating in hot climates wasn't in the specification!

[abc123]

OK, so they had them. But is it more important than fixing bloody propulsion? It's like you have a car with engine that one day works and another isn't, but instead of investing to solve that, no you buy a new CD for radio or air freshner.

Actually its more like having a car with an engine that is prone to overheating in the summer.

There used to be a problem with the power management system, but thats been fixed and we're now left waiting for an extra generate to fix the 'overheating' issue.

You forgot to say that you mostly use that car during summer.

yes operating in hot climates wasn't in the specification!

LOL, considering how often RN warships operate in East of Suez area in last 25+ years, that's pretty odd...

[marktigger]

LOL, considering how often RN warships operate in East of Suez area in last 25+ years, that's pretty odd...

Correct but thats what the contractor told the defence select committee. Now having been married to a professional buyer if its not in the specification then the contractor doesn't have to provide it no matter how common sense you would think it would be. a simple phrase like "capable of worldwide deployment should be sufficient" in my opinion should be enough

[jimthelad]

The biggest issue was the WR21 being used as load and prime mover, if they had stuck to the US turbine in that role fine but the UK engine was designed for low load rapid peak output behind the diesels as the prime movers. BAe was lazy in redesign and was already hideously behind schedule and over budget.

[shark bait]

That's not the issue, and the diesels aren't suppose to be the prime movers.

There are too issues, one with the PMS which has been fixed, and one with turbine performance which cannot be fixed.

[Ron5]

LOL, considering how often RN warships operate in East of Suez area in last 25+ years, that's pretty odd...

Correct but thats what the contractor told the defence select committee. Now having been married to a professional buyer if its not in the specification then the contractor doesn't have to provide it no matter how common sense you would think it would be. a simple phrase like "capable of worldwide deployment should be sufficient" in my opinion should be enough

It's a tad more nuanced than that. The Navy didn't specify that the turbine should work at 100% at the very highest temperatures because their experience with past turbines (and remember the RN has longer experience with them than any other Navy) was that as temperatures rise, traditional turbines power slowly degrades in a very predicable fashion. A nice smooth graph. Which can easily be factored into operations. When it gets really hot, your max speed will get lower.

They assumed the WR21 would do the same. Unfortunately, that turbine just stops working when temperatures rise. The exact opposite of a graceful decay. I have some sympathy for them. The contract and specs had to be completed in a major rush and they knew very well that choosing WR21 was a major risk. But the politicians insisted. It's quite surprising that more major T45 problems haven't emerged.

[Ron5]

The biggest issue was the WR21 being used as load and prime mover, if they had stuck to the US turbine in that role fine but the UK engine was designed for low load rapid peak output behind the diesels as the prime movers. BAe was lazy in redesign and was already hideously behind schedule and over budget.

Still posting the same garbage I see. Let me explain one more time.

Traditional turbines have a narrow power band where they are efficient enough to be used. Outside this band, fuel consumption gets so bad it's totally infeasible.

Warships need to be able to go fast and to cruise slowly. Warships require 10+ times more power to go fast as to cruise. No traditional turbine has the economic power band to achieve both tasks.

So from the very early days of Royal Navy gas turbine power, the GT was sized and used to power top speed and another power source (steam, diesel, diesel electric, a smaller gas turbine) was and is used to provide the economic cruise.

Obviously buying multiple engines is more expensive, heavier (makes the ship slower) and requires larger machine rooms and more crew. It also requires very complex, expensive and big mechanisms to switch from one power source to another. For example, gearboxes.

So Naval architects, being rational folk, requested a gas turbine that had a wide efficient power band so they only needed to fit one engine that would power the ship whatever its speed. They would save cost, weight, space, complexity & crew. Yippee.

Hence the WR21. A ship with the WR21 would not need a secondary cruise power source. The WR21 could be used all the time at all speeds. Except perhaps in harbor where a small generator to keep the lights on would provide a better power source.

So that's exactly how the Type 45 was designed. At sea, the WR21 would run all the time handling all ship speeds and ship electric loads. All because it could produce the necessary power from a few megawatts to 10s of megawatts, at a reasonable fuel consumption. At dock, the WR21 would be switched off and a small diesel generator would keep the lights on.

So "the UK engine was designed for low load rapid peak output behind the diesels as the prime movers" is a profoundly wrong statement. Profoundly.

A correct statement would be that the WR21 (an international design) was designed to be the sole power provider for all loads and speeds.

[marktigger]

LOL, considering how often RN warships operate in East of Suez area in last 25+ years, that's pretty odd...

Correct but thats what the contractor told the defence select committee. Now having been married to a professional buyer if its not in the specification then the contractor doesn't have to provide it no matter how common sense you would think it would be. a simple phrase like "capable of worldwide deployment should be sufficient" in my opinion should be enough

It's a tad more nuanced than that. The Navy didn't specify that the turbine should work at 100% at the very highest temperatures because their experience with past turbines (and remember the RN has longer experience with them than any other Navy) was that as temperatures rise, traditional turbines power slowly degrades in a very predicable fashion. A nice smooth graph. Which can easily be factored into operations. When it gets really hot, your max speed will get lower.

They assumed the WR21 would do the same. Unfortunately, that turbine just stops working when temperatures rise. The exact opposite of a graceful decay. I have some sympathy for them. The contract and specs had to be completed in a major rush and they knew very well that choosing WR21 was a major risk. But the politicians insisted. It's quite surprising that more major T45 problems haven't emerged.

yeap but a simple clause in the contract would hav covered the Navy & the MoD and transfared the risk to Rolls Royce and the costs for sorting the failure to comply with the contract!

[GibMariner]

Diamond completes counter illegal arms patrol

Royal Navy Type 45 Destroyer HMS Diamond ended her operations in the Central Mediterranean Sea this week, handing over duties countering the illegal arms trade into Libya to RFA Mounts Bay.

The Portsmouth based destroyer has been active in the region for the past two months, conducting surveillance and boarding merchant vessels suspected of supporting the illegal importation of weapons and ammunition into Libya.

The activity, in support of a United Nations Security Council resolution, has been part of Operation Sophia, the European Union Naval Force mission to try and stabilise the war torn region.

In September Diamond became the first vessel to conduct a boarding in support of the UN Security Council resolution, deploying her Royal Navy and Royal Marine boarding teams, as well as her state of the art Wildcat helicopter, the first time the helicopter has been utilised in a live operation from a Type 45.

Commander Marcus Hember, Commanding Officer, said: “Diamond has made a vital contribution to the effort here in the Mediterranean.

"It is important that we not only contribute to the efforts to help the people of Libya, but that we also try to address the root causes of these problems.”

He continued: “We have certainly contributed to that effort in our time here, dramatically improving our understanding of maritime activity in the region.”

The Type 45 Destroyer will now conduct a handover of her duties in the region to RFA Mounts Bay before returning back to the UK.

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-la ... rms-patrol

Departed Gib on Sunday:

[The Armchair Soldier]

In relation to the last few posts (excluding GibMariner's): This is a news only thread. To quote RetroSicotte:

Brief discussion of a piece of released news [...] is fine.

Extended speculation [...] with no immediate news release that isn't in direct relation, and is also starting to accelerate into a full blown multi-page discussion, is exactly the sort of thing we had complaints about these news threads turning into for those who don't want to have to scroll through page after page to find updates on a program.

We have a dedicated thread to do that till your heart's content.
http://ukdefenceforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=701

So let's keep this thread strictly for posting and discussing news.

[Ron5]

So the Type 45 issues with power are not news (old news maybe but still news) worth discussing?

I think you moderators need to huddle to come up with some better definitions. This is not working too well.

[shark bait]

For what it's worth I would tend to agree. A discussion forum where discussion is prohibited in certain places seems odd. If I want a news feed of stuff I go to Twitter.