Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

[inch]

Id argue that UK could afford it ,it's just wanting to afford it ,and leadership TELLING the population we needed to invest and increase the defence budget at these dangerous times at the cost of popular other important departments, or say happen not spend billions on giving tax cuts in next budget or say not spending billions on a useless train track to Birmingham but that would take leadership and a leader who actually listens to the grave concern of the current situation, but as it is there's no leadership or parties in government or potential government leadership out there, hence the shit show we have now .yes recruitment could be a real problem but making better living standards and better pay and opportunities, would go some way in helping to address the situation,,oh and probably clearing out the mod civil service lol,that was just an afterthought,,well it's either that or just downgrade to a local brown water navy ,we should just about be able to manage that with the decreasing crew and ships and weapons

[new guy]

HS2 as originally planned was brilliant.
Government fucked it all up.
Which other areas have we heard that before?
All of them?

[new guy]

An AAW variant of the T26 is a no brainer and costs can be shared with the RAN and RCN. Given the new frigate factory, another six AAW variants could be achieved without Gaps with the T45s.

However given the threat, there is no logical reason not to repurpose the five T31s also to become AAW ships, at least then they have a useful and relevant role.

It’s only a no brainer to use the T26 platform if you want an expensive multirole AAW/ASW ship. If you just want an AAW asset then the Type 31 is a better platform.

The RN cannot afford scale and capability both financially and in terms of crewing - better to have 15-16 top tier multi-role crewed warships than 19 single role ones where 25% are second tier and a similar number are tied up alongside.

15-16 top tier multi role escorts would cost a shit load more than 19 single role. Don't believe me? Check the price tag on a new Arleigh Burke.

[Bongodog]

HS2 as originally planned was brilliant.
Government fucked it all up.
Which other areas have we heard that before?
All of them?

Brilliant ? £80bn to save 15 minutes on a journey from London to Birmingham. Thats not the word I would use.

Meanwhile in the Telegraph today, Admiral West quoted as saying that back in 2003 or thereabouts as 1st Sea Lord he asked the Govt to install MK41 tubes on the T45 to give a land attack capability, the then Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon said no.

[albedo]

Brilliant ? £80bn to save 15 minutes on a journey from London to Birmingham.

Seriously OT I know so apologies, but FFS why do people keep saying this??? The prime purpose of HS2 always was to allow a much better service for intermediate stations on the existing West Coast route and also allowing much greater freight use. Both very worthwhile objectives. The existing line is pretty much full to capacity and cannot be further improved, at least not without 5-10 years of continuous major disruption and at greater cost than building HS2. Think of HS2 as a bypass for services that otherwise consume a huge amount of track space on the existing line. And if you're going to all the trouble of building a new line at all then might as well build it to modern standards of speed.

[SW1]

HS2 as originally planned was brilliant.
Government fucked it all up.
Which other areas have we heard that before?
All of them?

Brilliant ? £80bn to save 15 minutes on a journey from London to Birmingham. Thats not the word I would use.

Meanwhile in the Telegraph today, Admiral West quoted as saying that back in 2003 or thereabouts as 1st Sea Lord he asked the Govt to install MK41 tubes on the T45 to give a land attack capability, the then Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon said no.

I’m sure he was saying give me loads more money but then the good admiral was busy taking all the money and stuffing it into growing his carrier from 30-40k tonnes vessel envisaged in the 98sdsr into what we have today striping the escort fleet as he went he probably left that bit out of the paper though.

[new guy]

HS2 as originally planned was brilliant.
Government fucked it all up.
Which other areas have we heard that before?
All of them?

Brilliant ? £80bn to save 15 minutes on a journey from London to Birmingham. Thats not the word I would use.

Note: As originally planned.
£80bn or whatever 2019 figure was quoted for phase 2 included but the government has disclosed how much has been saved, being spent, e.c.t.
also closer to a 30 min saving.
HS2 was always about capacity not speed.
It was essentially creating a whole new main line for passenger services so that the west coast main line could accommodate slower services and freight. The existing west coast main line is at max capacity, not helped by higher speed passenger services needing to fit on track with much slower freight and regional services.

[wargame_insomniac]

An AAW variant of the T26 is a no brainer and costs can be shared with the RAN and RCN. Given the new frigate factory, another six AAW variants could be achieved without Gaps with the T45s.

However given the threat, there is no logical reason not to repurpose the five T31s also to become AAW ships, at least then they have a useful and relevant role.

It’s only a no brainer to use the T26 platform if you want an expensive multirole AAW/ASW ship. If you just want an AAW asset then the Type 31 is a better platform.

Key question is whether any new AAW Escort is replacing T45 / T83 or being added.to fleet.

Then is whether or not required to defend the CSG or for more solo missions. If need to supplement the T26 on escorting the CSG then IMO I would agree with those wanting the T26 ASW abilities with additional layers of AAW from CAMM, CAMM-ER and CAMM-MR.

If it is more of a solo mission then having an T31 batch 2 focussed on AAW, like its parent Iver Huitfeldt design, will definitely need improved Radar and increased VLS cells, but then could be very useful in patrolling Global LSLOC and their chokepoints, for likely far cheaper price.

This is why USN is ordering both Arleigh Burke Flight 11A / 111 and Constellation class Frigates. It needs some of the very expensive but highly flexible Flight 11A /111 Arleigh Burke's but also some cheaper escorts.

[Ron5]

HS2 as originally planned was brilliant.
Government fucked it all up.
Which other areas have we heard that before?
All of them?

Brilliant ? £80bn to save 15 minutes on a journey from London to Birmingham. Thats not the word I would use.

Meanwhile in the Telegraph today, Admiral West quoted as saying that back in 2003 or thereabouts as 1st Sea Lord he asked the Govt to install MK41 tubes on the T45 to give a land attack capability, the then Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon said no.

Hoon was a tier one moron. He canceled the land testing of the WR21's at the same time he insisted the untested engines be used for the T45's in order to keep Labour votes in Derby. Hoon's nickname was Buff as in Buff Hoon.

[new guy]

HS2 as originally planned was brilliant.
Government fucked it all up.
Which other areas have we heard that before?
All of them?

Brilliant ? £80bn to save 15 minutes on a journey from London to Birmingham. Thats not the word I would use.

Meanwhile in the Telegraph today, Admiral West quoted as saying that back in 2003 or thereabouts as 1st Sea Lord he asked the Govt to install MK41 tubes on the T45 to give a land attack capability, the then Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon said no.

I’m sure he was saying give me loads more money but then the good admiral was busy taking all the money and stuffing it into growing his carrier from 30-40k tonnes vessel envisaged in the 98sdsr into what we have today striping the escort fleet as he went he probably left that bit out of the paper though.

Utter, utter, nonsense. Though I'm certain it's standard RAF indoctrination these days.

[Ron5]

Key question is whether any new AAW Escort is replacing T45 / T83 or being added.to fleet.

There is no question. The T83 will replace the T45. MoD is crystal clear on that.

Then is whether or not required to defend the CSG or for more solo missions. If need to supplement the T26 on escorting the CSG then IMO I would agree with those wanting the T26 ASW abilities with additional layers of AAW from CAMM, CAMM-ER and CAMM-MR.

The T83 will have a requirement to escort the carriers as well as an ability to operate independently. Just like the T45's. And no, that does not imply an ASW capability.

If it is more of a solo mission then having an T31 batch 2 focussed on AAW, like its parent Iver Huitfeldt design, will definitely need improved Radar and increased VLS cells, but then could be very useful in patrolling Global LSLOC and their chokepoints, for likely far cheaper price.

Seeing that the T31's are so poorly configured and given the comments by the Admirals, there is clearly a desire to upgrade them. However the cost of such upgrades will have to come from some other program. So fewer F-35's? fewer T83's? no Type 32's? What?

As for patrolling SLOC's or "keeping SLOC's open" or such other phrases commonly used by one particular contributor here., that's absolute nonsense. You can't protect a SLOC especially with a tiny navy like the UK's. Obviously a specific small stretch under attack can be protected but takes a large effort and cannot realistically be done without carriers.

This is why USN is ordering both Arleigh Burke Flight 11A / 111 and Constellation class Frigates. It needs some of the very expensive but highly flexible Flight 11A /111 Arleigh Burke's but also some cheaper escorts.

The Constellations are the USN's Type 26. Their Type 31 equivalents are being withdrawn from service and will be scrapped or sold off cheap decades before planned.

[tomuk]

The Constellations are the USN's Type 26. Their Type 31 equivalents are being withdrawn from service and will be scrapped or sold off cheap decades before planned.

The FREMM before Gibb and Cox have spoilt them for American consumption aren't as good as T26 at ASW.

[Jake1992]

The Constellations are the USN's Type 26. Their Type 31 equivalents are being withdrawn from service and will be scrapped or sold off cheap decades before planned.

The FREMM before Gibb and Cox have spoilt them for American consumption aren't as good as T26 at ASW.

I don’t see the Constellation class as the USN T26, we have to think of how they’re planned to be used and not just the size or armament. The USN see them as tier 2 escorts much more how we see the T31, the Burks and next gen cruisers are much more the USN version of our T26 and T45/T83. We also need to remember how the USN do ASW and it’s not really from surface vessels like us but much more based around their vast number SSNs.

[Ian Hall]

The Constellations are the USN's Type 26. Their Type 31 equivalents are being withdrawn from service and will be scrapped or sold off cheap decades before planned.

The FREMM before Gibb and Cox have spoilt them for American consumption aren't as good as T26 at ASW.

I don’t see the Constellation class as the USN T26, we have to think of how they’re planned to be used and not just the size or armament. The USN see them as tier 2 escorts much more how we see the T31, the Burks and next gen cruisers are much more the USN version of our T26 and T45/T83. We also need to remember how the USN do ASW and it’s not really from surface vessels like us but much more based around their vast number SSNs.

Not a great deal of ASW experience myself (& dated at that) but enough to know the USN had extensive mutually supporting capabilities. Perhaps there's a ex-PWO(U) out there who could enlighten us.

[Ian Hall]

Good news, although it needs to happen sooner as there are no several potential global flashpoints thanks to the likes of Russia, China and even Iran and North Korea pushing to find weaknesses of the West, at a time when increasing risk of 2nd Donald Trump US Presidency causing US to become more isolationist.

This also reinforces the need for T45 to have more VLS cells to have increased resilience in their primary AAW role.

Whilst HMS Diamond has done well against a minor proxy in the Houthis, how well would she fare against major proxy like Hezbollah (with much larger quantity and variety of drones, munitions and missiles), let alone against Iran directly or above all China.

This is why I have long been an advocate of quad-packing CAMM (either via Mk41 or EXLS) and maybe Martlett deck launcher to offer lower cost options for desling with cheaper, simpler, more numerous drones / unguided munitions / missiles.

Not sure that I've seen anything reported that sheds light on whether Houthi attacks (nor counter-factual Hezbollah ones) are challenging T45 outloads.

[donald_of_tokyo]

It is just cost vs number. Comparing costy-fighty ship vs cheapish-patrol-oriented ship and saying which is better is pointless. They just differ.

RN cannot afford 5 T26 to replace 5 T31. Simple. If happy with 2.5 T26 to replace 5 T31, it will work. It will even give RN ~200 redundant crew, which is very precious now. At the same time, RN will be forced to withdraw KIPION frigate. Just that's it.

In Japan, we have
4x DDH (Kaga-class/Hyuga-class)
8x AEGIS DDG (Kongo, etc)
28x DD (Asagiri to Asahi class)
5x FFM (Mogami-class)
6x DE (Abukuma-class)

DDH is more or less Invincible-class
AEGIS DDG is comparable to US DDG
DD is more or less Constellation-class FF
FFM/DE is similar to T31

On this regard, I understand RN fleet is;
- T45 and T26 = Constellation-class FF, but T45 is more oriented to AAW and T26 to ASW.

Just,
T45 is comparable to Arleigh Burke-class DD (= much better than Constellation-class), but lacks ASW.
T26 is better than any of the US ships in ASW, but less in AAW.

- T31 "as-is" = LCS or Japanese FFM, USCG Legend-class cutter etc.

Nothing wrong with this comparison.

[NickC]

The Constellations are the USN's Type 26. Their Type 31 equivalents are being withdrawn from service and will be scrapped or sold off cheap decades before planned.

The FREMM before Gibb and Cox have spoilt them for American consumption aren't as good as T26 at ASW.

Would you explain your thinking as why you say Gibbs & Cox have spoilt FREMM, understood the opposite as Fincantieri after testing trials of the FREMM model hull at NSWC Carderock tank prior to bid for USN contract found they needed to stiffen the bending moment of the hull and added 300t steel for the Constellation, uses quiet HED propulsion and the same Thales VDS as T26.

The one very big capability advantage Constellation brings over T26 is in AAW with an order of magnitude more powerful new radar, SPY-6(V)3 (similarly with the CSC SPY-7 and the Hunter with the CEFAR radars) and with much longer range AA missiles, ESSM Blk 2 and SM-2 Blk IIIC. An additional plus is the 16 deck launchers for Kongsberg NSM.

[Ron5]

The Constellations are the USN's Type 26. Their Type 31 equivalents are being withdrawn from service and will be scrapped or sold off cheap decades before planned.

The FREMM before Gibb and Cox have spoilt them for American consumption aren't as good as T26 at ASW.

Might be one of the dumbest comments I've seen on this board.

The FREMM design has been upgraded in pretty much every way: significantly more stringent fighting, safety & living standards, hugely more capable sensors & more and improved weaponry. Making these changes by the team of Gibbs & Cox, MM & Fincantieri is a big challenge. Analogous (but less in scope) to the work done by Bae to adapt the UK's Type 26 to Australian requirements and look how challenging that's been.

I'm very confident that the resulting Constellationss will be very effective and widely admired.

As for FREMM vs Type 26 ASW prowess, not sure that's material to the effectiveness of Constellation in USN service. Apart from anything else, we do ASW different over here.

[Ron5]

The Constellations are the USN's Type 26. Their Type 31 equivalents are being withdrawn from service and will be scrapped or sold off cheap decades before planned.

The FREMM before Gibb and Cox have spoilt them for American consumption aren't as good as T26 at ASW.

I don’t see the Constellation class as the USN T26, we have to think of how they’re planned to be used and not just the size or armament. The USN see them as tier 2 escorts much more how we see the T31, the Burks and next gen cruisers are much more the USN version of our T26 and T45/T83. We also need to remember how the USN do ASW and it’s not really from surface vessels like us but much more based around their vast number SSNs.

Disagree, if you look at the public utterances by the USN & Pentagon, you will learn that the Constellations will play a hugely different role than the UK envisages for the Type 31. Not tier 2 nonsense, but complementary capabilities to the Burkes. More like (but not the same) as the Type 45 and Type 26 relationship.

PS what next generation cruisers??

[tomuk]

The Constellations are the USN's Type 26. Their Type 31 equivalents are being withdrawn from service and will be scrapped or sold off cheap decades before planned.

The FREMM before Gibb and Cox have spoilt them for American consumption aren't as good as T26 at ASW.

Might be one of the dumbest comments I've seen on this board.

The FREMM design has been upgraded in pretty much every way: significantly more stringent fighting, safety & living standards, hugely more capable sensors & more and improved weaponry. Making these changes by the team of Gibbs & Cox, MM & Fincantieri is a big challenge. Analogous (but less in scope) to the work done by Bae to adapt the UK's Type 26 to Australian requirements and look how challenging that's been.

I'm very confident that the resulting Constellationss will be very effective and widely admired.

As for FREMM vs Type 26 ASW prowess, not sure that's material to the effectiveness of Constellation in USN service. Apart from anything else, we do ASW different over here.

You said Constellations will be the USN's T26. That is why I bring up ASW prowess as being a top of the line ASW specialist is the T26s role in the RN. So if ASW prowess is not material as you suggest and as you say yourself you do ASW differently in the US I'd suggest your comment that the Constellations are the USN's T26 is equally if not more dumb than my comment.

I said the FREMM had been spoilt broadly in ASW terms on the basis of removing the bow sonar, lengthening the ship, adding 500 tons weight, broadening the effective beam by sitting lower in the water and potentially the uprated\replacement diesel generators. The additional AAW\Radar fit doesn't help ASW performance.

The Constellations are a second tier ship to complement the Burkes just as the T31 are a second tier ship to complement T26\T45. The tiers are just different as the capabilities if the two navies are.

[tomuk]

The Constellations are the USN's Type 26. Their Type 31 equivalents are being withdrawn from service and will be scrapped or sold off cheap decades before planned.

The FREMM before Gibb and Cox have spoilt them for American consumption aren't as good as T26 at ASW.

Would you explain your thinking as why you say Gibbs & Cox have spoilt FREMM, understood the opposite as Fincantieri after testing trials of the FREMM model hull at NSWC Carderock tank prior to bid for USN contract found they needed to stiffen the bending moment of the hull and added 300t steel for the Constellation, uses quiet HED propulsion and the same Thales VDS as T26.

The one very big capability advantage Constellation brings over T26 is in AAW with an order of magnitude more powerful new radar, SPY-6(V)3 (similarly with the CSC SPY-7 and the Hunter with the CEFAR radars) and with much longer range AA missiles, ESSM Blk 2 and SM-2 Blk IIIC. An additional plus is the 16 deck launchers for Kongsberg NSM.

What does any of that have to do with ASW performance which is the basis of my comment in reply to USN Constellation = RN T26?

[tomuk]

The Constellations are the USN's Type 26. Their Type 31 equivalents are being withdrawn from service and will be scrapped or sold off cheap decades before planned.

The FREMM before Gibb and Cox have spoilt them for American consumption aren't as good as T26 at ASW.

I don’t see the Constellation class as the USN T26, we have to think of how they’re planned to be used and not just the size or armament. The USN see them as tier 2 escorts much more how we see the T31, the Burks and next gen cruisers are much more the USN version of our T26 and T45/T83. We also need to remember how the USN do ASW and it’s not really from surface vessels like us but much more based around their vast number SSNs.

Disagree, if you look at the public utterances by the USN & Pentagon, you will learn that the Constellations will play a hugely different role than the UK envisages for the Type 31. Not tier 2 nonsense, but complementary capabilities to the Burkes. More like (but not the same) as the Type 45 and Type 26 relationship.

PS what next generation cruisers??

Would these complementary capabilities be of a lower level than the Burkes? Definitely smaller missile fit, smaller radar, smaller gun. Sounds suspiciously like a second tier to me.

[Ron5]

I said the FREMM had been spoilt broadly in ASW terms on the basis of removing the bow sonar, lengthening the ship, adding 500 tons weight, broadening the effective beam by sitting lower in the water and potentially the uprated\replacement diesel generators.

Huh? Spoiled by getting bigger? Okaaay

What does any of that have to do with ASW performance which is the basis of my comment in reply to USN Constellation = RN T26?

The USN way of ASW is very much team oriented with surface, subsurface and above surface elements working together. The USN has numbers and capability of assets to make that possible. The UK/European way is one surface ship vs one submarine. So to compare one Constellation with one T26 should be kept for those playing top trumps or the video games that invented the "tier" nonsense. Try comparing the effectiveness of a USN CSG escort fleet with one from the UK in ASW.

And for the Constellations to participate in CSG s, they need robust AAW as Nick points out.

Would these complementary capabilities be of a lower level than the Burkes? Definitely smaller missile fit, smaller radar, smaller gun. Sounds suspiciously like a second tier to me.

Putting aside video game "tiers", Constellations & AB's are intended to work together in escort groups to defend high value assets like carriers against the very highest threat levels. They are also intended to fight independently in lower level threat environments. Hence their well rounded configuration.

The Type 31's are intended to patrol distant places on their own and bravely run away if any threat, higher than constabulary, actually materializes. They are not intended to complement either Type 45's or Type 26's in any combat situation.

Not sure how we got here on a Type 45 news thread. I trust the moderators will move this discussion to the correct place if needed.

[tomuk]

I said the FREMM had been spoilt broadly in ASW terms on the basis of removing the bow sonar, lengthening the ship, adding 500 tons weight, broadening the effective beam by sitting lower in the water and potentially the uprated\replacement diesel generators.

Huh? Spoiled by getting bigger? Okaaay

Yes bigger isn't always better particularly where you're talking about the optimisation of a ships noise signature and are changing the parameters of an already optimised hull.

What does any of that have to do with ASW performance which is the basis of my comment in reply to USN Constellation = RN T26?

The USN way of ASW is very much team oriented with surface, subsurface and above surface elements working together. The USN has numbers and capability of assets to make that possible. The UK/European way is one surface ship vs one submarine. So to compare one Constellation with one T26 should be kept for those playing top trumps or the video games that invented the "tier" nonsense. Try comparing the effectiveness of a USN CSG escort fleet with one from the UK in ASW.

You are the one who made the comparison saying Constellation is the USN equivalent of RN T26. Despite as you keep saying the way both navies operate is very different.

Tiers were invented by video games? What are you on about? Was Zumwalt playing video games when he promoted a high low mix of ships in the USN?

Would these complementary capabilities be of a lower level than the Burkes? Definitely smaller missile fit, smaller radar, smaller gun. Sounds suspiciously like a second tier to me.

Putting aside video game "tiers", Constellations & AB's are intended to work together in escort groups to defend high value assets like carriers against the very highest threat levels. They are also intended to fight independently in lower level threat environments. Hence their well rounded configuration.

Yes a lower level capability that some including high ranking admirals might call a second tier whther they play video games or not.

The Type 31's are intended to patrol distant places on their own and bravely run away if any threat, higher than constabulary, actually materializes. They are not intended to complement either Type 45's or Type 26's in any combat situation.

Yes a lower level capability which if the cash is there for Mk41 can be upgraded to a very complimemtary escort to T26\T45

[Ron5]

Yes bigger isn't always better particularly where you're talking about the optimisation of a ships noise signature and are changing the parameters of an already optimised hull.

T26 is considerably bigger, so it must be noisier? Utter nonsense.

You are the one who made the comparison saying Constellation is the USN equivalent of RN T26. Despite as you keep saying the way both navies operate is very different.

Tiers were invented by video games? What are you on about? Was Zumwalt playing video games when he promoted a high low mix of ships in the USN?

$5 to you if you can find a quote from Zumwalt including the term "Tier 2". The problem I have with the comments here including that phrase suggest an false equivalence between T31 & Constellation i.e. Type 31 has less capability than Type 26 so because T26 is Tier 1, T31 must be Tier 2. Constellation has less capability than Tier 1 Arleigh Burke so Constellation must be Tier 2. Therefore Tier 2 Type 31 equals Tier 2 Type 31. QED.

Yes a lower level capability that some including high ranking admirals might call a second tier whether they play video games or not.

They don't.

Yes a lower level capability which if the cash is there for Mk41 can be upgraded to a very complimentary escort to T26\T45

Adding a Mk 41 to a Type 31 will give it a capability comparable to a Constellation?? Give me a break.

Once again, dear Moderators, if you wish to move this conversation, please go ahead.