NSM fits into the months and £millions envelope much better than Mk41 and TLAM.
Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
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- Ron5 • new guy
Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
Possibly, but don’t underestimate the embarrassment factor - must be atleast three times now our PM has had to speak to Biden on how the UK can contribute, and all three times the answer has been we will fly a few jets a thousand miles to drop a few bombs. I’m sure the question “if the French can do it why not the UK” comes to mind, exactly the same when Syria was hit.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
16 NSM with some sort of improvements or more likely proving land attack capabilities would be one hell of a capability.
It's like saying: Oh yeah we have the same amount of AShM/LAM as the french frigates have AAM in a AAM committed configuration.
It's like saying: Oh yeah we have the same amount of AShM/LAM as the french frigates have AAM in a AAM committed configuration.
Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
What embarrassment factor? Who else is striking targets in the Red Sea? With biden cheerleading terrorists in our own country he’s lucky we’re not joining the rest of the world and saying you wanna start another bombing campaign in the Middle East away you go not interested.Repulse wrote: ↑05 Feb 2024, 15:41Possibly, but don’t underestimate the embarrassment factor - must be atleast three times now our PM has had to speak to Biden on how the UK can contribute, and all three times the answer has been we will fly a few jets a thousand miles to drop a few bombs. I’m sure the question “if the French can do it why not the UK” comes to mind, exactly the same when Syria was hit.
Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
Okay, whatever...
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…
Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
Perhaps the embarrassing bit is the willingness to act without the assets to back it up.SW1 wrote: ↑05 Feb 2024, 17:04What embarrassment factor? Who else is striking targets in the Red Sea? With biden cheerleading terrorists in our own country he’s lucky we’re not joining the rest of the world and saying you wanna start another bombing campaign in the Middle East away you go not interested.Repulse wrote: ↑05 Feb 2024, 15:41Possibly, but don’t underestimate the embarrassment factor - must be atleast three times now our PM has had to speak to Biden on how the UK can contribute, and all three times the answer has been we will fly a few jets a thousand miles to drop a few bombs. I’m sure the question “if the French can do it why not the UK” comes to mind, exactly the same when Syria was hit.
I’m no friend of Biden, but I would like to think we are in this for the right reasons.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
We provided a contribution that is roughly equivalent to any such contribution we have provided in the past so there is absolutely nothing to be embarrassed about.Repulse wrote: ↑05 Feb 2024, 20:53Perhaps the embarrassing bit is the willingness to act without the assets to back it up.SW1 wrote: ↑05 Feb 2024, 17:04What embarrassment factor? Who else is striking targets in the Red Sea? With biden cheerleading terrorists in our own country he’s lucky we’re not joining the rest of the world and saying you wanna start another bombing campaign in the Middle East away you go not interested.Repulse wrote: ↑05 Feb 2024, 15:41Possibly, but don’t underestimate the embarrassment factor - must be atleast three times now our PM has had to speak to Biden on how the UK can contribute, and all three times the answer has been we will fly a few jets a thousand miles to drop a few bombs. I’m sure the question “if the French can do it why not the UK” comes to mind, exactly the same when Syria was hit.
I’m no friend of Biden, but I would like to think we are in this for the right reasons.
Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
Again you miss the point. It isn't the gross size it is the size of the changes. If the hull has been optimised for a certain size and ou then go outside those margns there will be issues. Just with Hunter where the BAE Australia CEO is very careful not to deny that Hunter will have worse ASW performnce than T26 die to the weight gain but alternately confirms that it is still meets Au DOD requirements.
Again no it there isn't false equivalence the two Navies are different the Tiers land at different levels of capability.$5 to you if you can find a quote from Zumwalt including the term "Tier 2". The problem I have with the comments here including that phrase suggest an false equivalence between T31 & Constellation i.e. Type 31 has less capability than Type 26 so because T26 is Tier 1, T31 must be Tier 2. Constellation has less capability than Tier 1 Arleigh Burke so Constellation must be Tier 2. Therefore Tier 2 Type 31 equals Tier 2 Type 31. QED.tomuk wrote: ↑01 Feb 2024, 16:05 You are the one who made the comparison saying Constellation is the USN equivalent of RN T26. Despite as you keep saying the way both navies operate is very different.
Tiers were invented by video games? What are you on about? Was Zumwalt playing video games when he promoted a high low mix of ships in the USN?
Again you're the one making a false equivalency. I'm not saying it gives a comparable capability to an AB.They don't.
Adding a Mk 41 to a Type 31 will give it a capability comparable to a Constellation?? Give me a break.
Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
France are making air strikes on the Houthis from Charles De Gaulle? Or are they using SCLAP on the FREMM?Repulse wrote: ↑05 Feb 2024, 15:41Possibly, but don’t underestimate the embarrassment factor - must be atleast three times now our PM has had to speak to Biden on how the UK can contribute, and all three times the answer has been we will fly a few jets a thousand miles to drop a few bombs. I’m sure the question “if the French can do it why not the UK” comes to mind, exactly the same when Syria was hit.
France are operating outside the US led coalition waiting fie the EU led operation to form.
Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
The fact that this has been the maximum of our ability/ambition since 2010 is even more embarrassing.SW1 wrote: ↑05 Feb 2024, 22:12We provided a contribution that is roughly equivalent to any such contribution we have provided in the past so there is absolutely nothing to be embarrassed about.Repulse wrote: ↑05 Feb 2024, 20:53Perhaps the embarrassing bit is the willingness to act without the assets to back it up.SW1 wrote: ↑05 Feb 2024, 17:04What embarrassment factor? Who else is striking targets in the Red Sea? With biden cheerleading terrorists in our own country he’s lucky we’re not joining the rest of the world and saying you wanna start another bombing campaign in the Middle East away you go not interested.Repulse wrote: ↑05 Feb 2024, 15:41Possibly, but don’t underestimate the embarrassment factor - must be atleast three times now our PM has had to speak to Biden on how the UK can contribute, and all three times the answer has been we will fly a few jets a thousand miles to drop a few bombs. I’m sure the question “if the French can do it why not the UK” comes to mind, exactly the same when Syria was hit.
I’m no friend of Biden, but I would like to think we are in this for the right reasons.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
And what’s your point? Whether countries contribute/engage or not isn’t the argument, it’s what they can contribute when they do.tomuk wrote: ↑05 Feb 2024, 22:30France are making air strikes on the Houthis from Charles De Gaulle? Or are they using SCLAP on the FREMM?Repulse wrote: ↑05 Feb 2024, 15:41Possibly, but don’t underestimate the embarrassment factor - must be atleast three times now our PM has had to speak to Biden on how the UK can contribute, and all three times the answer has been we will fly a few jets a thousand miles to drop a few bombs. I’m sure the question “if the French can do it why not the UK” comes to mind, exactly the same when Syria was hit.
France are operating outside the US led coalition waiting fie the EU led operation to form.
All those assets that you’ve listed above have been used by the French in the last decade and will be again. If the UK wants to really participate it needs to commit the assets and spend to do so, otherwise we are just the gobby kid stood behind the big kid.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
Seen this in the Navy look out article.
https://www.navylookout.com/what-is-the ... apability/
https://www.navylookout.com/what-is-the ... apability/
We think about converting the ships to use Tomahawk but then there is getting the missiles.There is also very high global demand for Tomahawks right now and the UK would be in the queue with Japan, Netherlands & Australia.
Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
The question is - is this a short term reaction to an issue that demands an immediate solution, or is it a realisation that over the next 15 years or so of the T45’s service life there may be other situations where it is desirable to have the capability to carry a loud out of TLAM.
The decision, if any, will tell us a lot about the question being asked.
The decision, if any, will tell us a lot about the question being asked.
Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
I think you've gotten so knotted and twisted in your arguing, you've come full circle. Time for you to stop digging perhapstomuk wrote: ↑05 Feb 2024, 22:25Again you miss the point. It isn't the gross size it is the size of the changes. If the hull has been optimised for a certain size and ou then go outside those margns there will be issues. Just with Hunter where the BAE Australia CEO is very careful not to deny that Hunter will have worse ASW performnce than T26 die to the weight gain but alternately confirms that it is still meets Au DOD requirements.Again no it there isn't false equivalence the two Navies are different the Tiers land at different levels of capability.$5 to you if you can find a quote from Zumwalt including the term "Tier 2". The problem I have with the comments here including that phrase suggest an false equivalence between T31 & Constellation i.e. Type 31 has less capability than Type 26 so because T26 is Tier 1, T31 must be Tier 2. Constellation has less capability than Tier 1 Arleigh Burke so Constellation must be Tier 2. Therefore Tier 2 Type 31 equals Tier 2 Type 31. QED.tomuk wrote: ↑01 Feb 2024, 16:05 You are the one who made the comparison saying Constellation is the USN equivalent of RN T26. Despite as you keep saying the way both navies operate is very different.
Tiers were invented by video games? What are you on about? Was Zumwalt playing video games when he promoted a high low mix of ships in the USN?
Again you're the one making a false equivalency. I'm not saying it gives a comparable capability to an AB.They don't.
Adding a Mk 41 to a Type 31 will give it a capability comparable to a Constellation?? Give me a break.
Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
Yes it is the point as you the one suggesting that we should be embarrassed compared to France.Repulse wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 07:48And what’s your point? Whether countries contribute/engage or not isn’t the argument, it’s what they can contribute when they do.tomuk wrote: ↑05 Feb 2024, 22:30France are making air strikes on the Houthis from Charles De Gaulle? Or are they using SCLAP on the FREMM?Repulse wrote: ↑05 Feb 2024, 15:41Possibly, but don’t underestimate the embarrassment factor - must be atleast three times now our PM has had to speak to Biden on how the UK can contribute, and all three times the answer has been we will fly a few jets a thousand miles to drop a few bombs. I’m sure the question “if the French can do it why not the UK” comes to mind, exactly the same when Syria was hit.
France are operating outside the US led coalition waiting fie the EU led operation to form.
All those assets that you’ve listed above have been used by the French in the last decade and will be again. If the UK wants to really participate it needs to commit the assets and spend to do so, otherwise we are just the gobby kid stood behind the big kid.
If as you suggest Biden is calling Paris the answer he is getting is were not helping you as we're too busy in our own EU led operation
Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
No I'm completely consistent with what I have argued but as always you just post in bad faith.Ron5 wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 14:15I think you've gotten so knotted and twisted in your arguing, you've come full circle. Time for you to stop digging perhapstomuk wrote: ↑05 Feb 2024, 22:25Again you miss the point. It isn't the gross size it is the size of the changes. If the hull has been optimised for a certain size and ou then go outside those margns there will be issues. Just with Hunter where the BAE Australia CEO is very careful not to deny that Hunter will have worse ASW performnce than T26 die to the weight gain but alternately confirms that it is still meets Au DOD requirements.Again no it there isn't false equivalence the two Navies are different the Tiers land at different levels of capability.$5 to you if you can find a quote from Zumwalt including the term "Tier 2". The problem I have with the comments here including that phrase suggest an false equivalence between T31 & Constellation i.e. Type 31 has less capability than Type 26 so because T26 is Tier 1, T31 must be Tier 2. Constellation has less capability than Tier 1 Arleigh Burke so Constellation must be Tier 2. Therefore Tier 2 Type 31 equals Tier 2 Type 31. QED.tomuk wrote: ↑01 Feb 2024, 16:05 You are the one who made the comparison saying Constellation is the USN equivalent of RN T26. Despite as you keep saying the way both navies operate is very different.
Tiers were invented by video games? What are you on about? Was Zumwalt playing video games when he promoted a high low mix of ships in the USN?
Again you're the one making a false equivalency. I'm not saying it gives a comparable capability to an AB.They don't.
Adding a Mk 41 to a Type 31 will give it a capability comparable to a Constellation?? Give me a break.
Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
The point is clearly that the UKs contribution to these operations when it comes to offensive strike is limited. Yes, Cyprus is valuable and the air assets from there have contributed, but in a limited way. The point is the French can do that, plus have frigates with cruise missiles, plus bring in CdG. This whole discussion is about the UK needing more arrows in its bow - the CVFs/F35Bs will bring another, but we need more.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
And how confident is everyone now in dealing with a 50 or 100 drone swarm with only 48x Aster and backed up by the 30mm and Phalanx?
How would a T45/T23 deal with a surface swarm especially at night with a high sea state?
Many questions but the gaps in capability are obvious.
Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
Why would any single ship have to deal with that on its own and not as part of a task group multinational or otherwisePoiuytrewq wrote: ↑07 Feb 2024, 08:35And how confident is everyone now in dealing with a 50 or 100 drone swarm with only 48x Aster and backed up by the 30mm and Phalanx?
How would a T45/T23 deal with a surface swarm especially at night with a high sea state?
Many questions but the gaps in capability are obvious.
- These users liked the author SW1 for the post (total 2):
- donald_of_tokyo • serge750
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
More ships bigger swarm or multiple swarms.
Each 50 drone swarm costs around $1m at $20k unit.
Surface swarms will be more expensive but could a T45 even handle a dozen such drones at night?
Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
A high sea state will deter a surface swarm, maybe stop it entirely.Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑07 Feb 2024, 08:35And how confident is everyone now in dealing with a 50 or 100 drone swarm with only 48x Aster and backed up by the 30mm and Phalanx?
How would a T45/T23 deal with a surface swarm especially at night with a high sea state?
Many questions but the gaps in capability are obvious.
Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
I’m not sure it translates linearly. There is passive means of stopping these things too. If you have to counter the passive systems the cost of the drone goes up. If it has to go more than 10 miles off shore the cost goes up. And there is multiple different capabilities as part of a task groupPoiuytrewq wrote: ↑07 Feb 2024, 09:57More ships bigger swarm or multiple swarms.
Each 50 drone swarm costs around $1m at $20k unit.
Surface swarms will be more expensive but could a T45 even handle a dozen such drones at night?
Well a type 45 has wildcat and several gun systems so it has capabilities against surface drones with gd all weather and night sensors. And that multiples if there in a task group