River Class (OPV) (RN)

[Pseudo]

I always thought that the role of the fleet ready escort in such situations in and around our own waters was more of a reminder of our presence and the real deterrent was the air based anti-ship capabilities.

[ArmChairCivvy]

SB, are you photoshopping over there?

Pseudo, what air-based anti-ship? I think the best we have can stop a corvette, or at least an FAC (or be the the shot over the bow...)

[RichardIC]

I Disagree , there's nothing pointless in showing strength in the face of a aggressor.

As for rivers being adequate as the fleet ready escort , Then maybe the RAF should send up some short tucsnos instead of typhoons to intercept Russian aircraft approaching UK air space ????? Or Maybe deploy some Grob g115 to Eastern Europe to fly the flag in response to Russian aggression in support of our allies????

Rivers have there uses and the batch 2 some more but these are still tooth less assets , maybe just send a tug or rib can't get any more cheap or efficient than that .

We're not at war, they're not an aggressor. They're exercising a legitimate right of free passage.

The approach of aircraft close to UK airspace, failing to identify themselves and cutting across airlanes filled with civil traffic is clearly something different.

Look, it's not something I feel that strongly about to be honest with you, but I don't think it inappropriate for a patrol vessel to shadow a warship from a nation we're not in a state of hostilities with close to our coast.

[shark bait]

We're not at war, they're not an aggressor. They're exercising a legitimate right of free passage.

The approach of aircraft close to UK airspace, failing to identify themselves and cutting across airlanes filled with civil traffic is clearly something different.

Correct but what is the point of an escort? to make sure nothing bad happens? if it is how is a river suppose to stop anything from happening that we dont want to.

SB, are you photoshopping over there?

Damn, how could you tell! I liked the idea and wondered how it would look.

[Lugzy]

I Disagree , there's nothing pointless in showing strength in the face of a aggressor.

As for rivers being adequate as the fleet ready escort , Then maybe the RAF should send up some short tucsnos instead of typhoons to intercept Russian aircraft approaching UK air space ????? Or Maybe deploy some Grob g115 to Eastern Europe to fly the flag in response to Russian aggression in support of our allies????

Rivers have there uses and the batch 2 some more but these are still tooth less assets , maybe just send a tug or rib can't get any more cheap or efficient than that .

[/quote]We're not at war, they're not an aggressor. They're exercising a legitimate right of free passage.

The approach of aircraft close to UK airspace, failing to identify themselves and cutting across airlanes filled with civil traffic is clearly something different.

Look, it's not something I feel that strongly about to be honest with you, but I don't think it inappropriate for a patrol vessel to shadow a warship from a nation we're not in a state of hostilities with close to our coast.[/quote]




Well tbh thats were we disagree , to say it's ok to scramble fully armed and ready typhoon jets to intercept Russian bombers / fighters ,is ok because the Russian planes didn't identify themselves and were operating in busy air lanes ,
but when unidentified unannounced Russian aircraft carriers , missile cruisers , and frigates turn up near UK territorial waters in some of the worlds busiest sea lanes it's ok to send basically a very lightly armed fisheries patrol boat lol

No we are not at war but hidden in these games of cat and mouse there is a very clear message being sent by Mr Putin to the west , sending a fisheries patrol vessel just isn't going to deliver a credible reply tbh .

My worries is that trying to justify these vessels as being much more mission capable then they really are leaves open the door to cuts in vessels we desperately need in the future ,

My opologies if I've gone on to much about this , I'll agree to disagree lol

[Lugzy]

Its Official!

Great effort shark lol

[ArmChairCivvy]

Next time can we have the nicest one included in the piccie:


Ship Class Entered service Displacement Type Homeport Note
HMC Protector Telkkä-class 2014 434 tonnes Cutter Portsmouth[10] [11]
HMC Seeker UKBF 42m Customs Cutter 2001 257 tonnes Cutter
HMC Searcher UKBF 42m Customs Cutter 2002 257 tonnes Cutter
HMC Vigilant UKBF 42m Customs Cutter 2003 257 tonnes Cutter
HMC Valiant UKBF 42m Customs Cutter 2004 257 tonnes Cutter

I do get one of the Rivers visiting every two months, and the profile is so distinctive that one can tell from 5 miles away.
- anyone think they look like T21s?

[Pseudo]

Well tbh thats were we disagree , to say it's ok to scramble fully armed and ready typhoon jets to intercept Russian bombers / fighters ,is ok because the Russian planes didn't identify themselves and were operating in busy air lanes ,
but when unidentified unannounced Russian aircraft carriers , missile cruisers , and frigates turn up near UK territorial waters in some of the worlds busiest sea lanes it's ok to send basically a very lightly armed fisheries patrol boat lol

Though we're not talking about just sending a patrol boat. We're talking about the patrol boat making up the visible sea based portion of an obvious defensive capability that what would include MPA's. Effectively the point would be that we wouldn't be sending a frigate to escort them because they're more than covered anyway. Given that they're within such close range of our shores aggressive action against an OPV or a frigate is surely going to be responded to with air power not maritime power. So I wonder what the effective difference between an OPV and a frigate is in those circumstances.

[shark bait]

Next time can we have the nicest one included in the piccie:

HMC Protector is the nicest? Its in there now



Now youve mentioned it I can see some similarities in white the profile of the T21


There is also the fisheries protection vessels.....
FPV Hirta (2,000t)
FPV Jura (2,000t)
FPV Minna (1,000t)
Alot of things doing similar jobs! However the image starts to look a bit crowded with those!

[Lugzy]

Well tbh thats were we disagree , to say it's ok to scramble fully armed and ready typhoon jets to intercept Russian bombers / fighters ,is ok because the Russian planes didn't identify themselves and were operating in busy air lanes ,
but when unidentified unannounced Russian aircraft carriers , missile cruisers , and frigates turn up near UK territorial waters in some of the worlds busiest sea lanes it's ok to send basically a very lightly armed fisheries patrol boat lol

Though we're not talking about just sending a patrol boat. We're talking about the patrol boat making up the visible sea based portion of an obvious defensive capability that what would include MPA's. Effectively the point would be that we wouldn't be sending a frigate to escort them because they're more than covered anyway. Given that they're within such close range of our shores aggressive action against an OPV or a frigate is surely going to be responded to with air power not maritime power. So I wonder what the effective difference between an OPV and a frigate is in those circumstances.

Sorry if I'm going off topic again guys
The Thing is the UK doesn't have a layered maritime defence strategy that I'm aware of , there's no viable MPA , no heavy air launched anti ship missiles , no shore based heavy anti ship missiles , so the opv would be on its own and I'd hate to be the guy on a opv facing down a guided missile cruiser if things did go bad . the uks best maritime defence systems are on our warships and submarines that's why a warship should always be the fleet ready escort , I'n most scenarios
as other members have said the point of a escort is to escort and be ready to defend our territorial waters , and a show of strength at times can be enough to make anyone think twice about escalating a confrontation . Hopefully it never comes to that but it's always best to be ready and have the best tools available in my opinion .

Tbh I can't believe we are having this convo , for a country with a modern navy not to be able to have in place a warship ready escort would be shameful , lol
OPVs have there uses and yes they could take the strain off the fleet in low risk operations but they shouldn't be used in place of warships nor should warships numbers be cut Under the pretence they can do the same job . They can't !!!

[marktigger]

I always thought that the role of the fleet ready escort in such situations in and around our own waters was more of a reminder of our presence and the real deterrent was the air based anti-ship capabilities.

thats 1 role since sea eagle and air launched harpoon and alarm are no more they are the deterrence the real anti ship power are subs

[Pseudo]

The Thing is the UK doesn't have a layered maritime defence strategy that I'm aware of , there's no viable MPA

I understand that there's an entire thread here devoted to speculation about the possibility of a fairly imminent regeneration of that capability.

no heavy air launched anti ship missiles ,

I'd expect that we'd reacquire heavy air launched anti-ship missiles alongside or shortly after regenerating the MPA capability. I'm not suggesting this is something that can happen straight away, if only because the Forth group of River's haven't entered service and we don't currently have an MPA. What I'm wondering about is whether this would be feasible in the pretty likely event that we have those capabilities in the future.

[marktigger]

could the early rivers be manned by RNR on FTRS?

I had heard they were fairly knackered due to fairly intense use

[shark bait]

It's the busiest shipping lane in the world, with 2 of our 3 naval bases on it, its just inexcusable to protect it with a ship with no weapons. We absolutely need a real warship ready in that area.

I am always very wary of the suggestions that replaced a frigate with patrol vessel. I don't think it will enhance capability, and will give an excuse to reduce real frigates. I understand the concept that is supposed to free up frigate and it may work in the north Atlantic but beyond that a frigate is there because a frigate is needed.

[Lugzy]

The Thing is the UK doesn't have a layered maritime defence strategy that I'm aware of , there's no viable MPA

I understand that there's an entire thread here devoted to speculation about the possibility of a fairly imminent regeneration of that capability.

no heavy air launched anti ship missiles ,

I'd expect that we'd reacquire heavy air launched anti-ship missiles alongside or shortly after regenerating the MPA capability. I'm not suggesting this is something that can happen straight away, if only because the Forth group of River's haven't entered service and we don't currently have an MPA. What I'm wondering about is whether this would be feasible in the pretty likely event that we have those capabilities in the future.

Yes your right there is a thread on here about possible aircraft options to fill the MPA role for the UK , and I believe like others here that regaining a credable MPA capability is key to UK defence for the future , there is a gap and it needs to be filled so I expect it will be one of the key announcements in this years SDSR ,
not sure if there will be anything imminent about it though tbh , they could say they are going to look at the options available , they might say they are already to spend who knows ,
then it's a case of procurement which airframe , how much etc , then it's a case of time of delivery , is there any slots available in production or can we lease a few until we can get our own , small chance but who knows , it could be years yet sadly before this capability is regained . But until the SDSR is disclosed who knows .

Will future MPA + future possible air /helicopter lauched heavy anti ship missiles make any difference to the way we approach our maritime defence strategy hmmmmmm maybe , would I then swap a frigate or destroyer for a opv as a fleet ready escort no I wouldn't . Any extra resources such as MPA would strengthen our reaction but putting a opv in possible harms way isn't the way to go they were simply not built to fill that role.

[Lugzy]

It's the busiest shipping lane in the world, with 2 of our 3 naval bases on it, its just inexcusable to protect it with a ship with no weapons. We absolutely need a real warship ready in that area.

I am always very wary of the suggestions that replaced a frigate with patrol vessel. I don't think it will enhance capability, and will give an excuse to reduce real frigates. I understand the concept that is supposed to free up frigate and it may work in the north Atlantic but beyond that a frigate is there because a frigate is needed.

Totally agree shark bait , couldn't of said it better tbh )

[Pseudo]

Will future MPA + future possible air /helicopter lauched heavy anti ship missiles make any difference to the way we approach our maritime defence strategy hmmmmmm maybe , would I then swap a frigate or destroyer for a opv as a fleet ready escort no I wouldn't . Any extra resources such as MPA would strengthen our reaction but putting a opv in possible harms way isn't the way to go they were simply not built to fill that role.

I'm not sure I see how you would be putting an OPV in harms way any more than we would be deploying them to many other areas, such as the Falklands. I'd actually think that they'd be less in harms way considering that in this scenario they'd be backed up by MPA's and other aircraft capable of deterring offensive action, not to mention the possibility of an SSN skulking about.

I think that the big problem I have with the thinking that a frigate is a necessity for such a task is that it seems to rely on the belief that we might face an attack without any forewarning or that the situation in the North Atlantic could deteriorate so rapidly that war could be declared without ourselves and our NATO allies having the chance to assemble some sort of task force. Because let's face it, if there was something hostile coming our way it'd be coming in numbers, so a single frigate (no matter how capable) wouldn't be much opposition or deterrent anyway.

[marktigger]

|Pseudo maybe you need to look at what else a frigale brings to the party! And the opportunities for training a crew. Stop looking at a frigate as a group of weapons and look at its other capabilities. Manned by experienced ship drivers!

[ArmChairCivvy]

I think it was already said above, but the Rivers (whichever version) give the first ship command opportunity to many in the RN... invaluable with the ever shrinking number of vessels.

[Pseudo]

|Pseudo maybe you need to look at what else a frigale brings to the party! And the opportunities for training a crew. Stop looking at a frigate as a group of weapons and look at its other capabilities. Manned by experienced ship drivers!

I think you're mistaking me for my opponents in this discussion. Though as for your comment about training, I'm not convinced that waiting around for Russia to send a ship past our doorstep is a particularly efficient or effective training regime.

[shark bait]

Let's not forget that the frigate sat waiting in Portsmouth is the fleet ready escort (or should be one) it is not just for UK waters, it is a ship available at high readiness to deploy anywhere that is needed to protect British interests. Much in the same way the army has infantry at hig readiness and the RAF keeps aircraft at high readiness.

Admittedly the chances of a military attack on the British isle's is close to zero right now, its it maintaining a presence and proving we could respond any where I'm the world if called upon, and only a frigate can do that. Sending that frigate out can be a token gesture and some flag flying or it could be genuinely important. All that matters is visibly showing our capabilities to respond. Look what happened in 82 when the Argentine's thought we couldn't respond.

[Pseudo]

Let's not forget that the frigate sat waiting in Portsmouth is the fleet ready escort (or should be one) it is not just for UK waters, it is a ship available at high readiness to deploy anywhere that is needed to protect British interests. Much in the same way the army has infantry at hig readiness and the RAF keeps aircraft at high readiness.

Admittedly the chances of a military attack on the British isle's is close to zero right now, its it maintaining a presence and proving we could respond any where I'm the world if called upon, and only a frigate can do that. Sending that frigate out can be a token gesture and some flag flying or it could be genuinely important. All that matters is visibly showing our capabilities to respond. Look what happened in 82 when the Argentine's thought we couldn't respond.

This is pretty much my original point. If a combination of MPA, River's etc. can provide the capability to monitor and shadow non-allied vessels transiting near our waters doesn't that marginally free up the fleet ready escort for precisely such eventualities as responding to events elsewhere? Essentially all I'm talking about is flexibility and the possibility of using an aggregate of assets to improve the availability of our frigates for jobs that an OPV alone would be entirely unsuitable for.

[shark bait]

This is pretty much my original point. If a combination of MPA, River's etc. can provide the capability to monitor and shadow non-allied vessels transiting near our waters doesn't that marginally free up the fleet ready escort for precisely such eventualities as responding to events elsewhere? Essentially all I'm talking about is flexibility and the possibility of using an aggregate of assets to improve the availability of our frigates for jobs that an OPV alone would be entirely unsuitable for.

It's entirely feasible, I just dont think it send the same image in a role that is supose to look fierce, which I supose is the trade off.

If the fleet ready escort is actually off doing some real business then it would make sense to replace it similar to how you suggested, but I think it's dangerous for that to become routine.

[Pseudo]

It's entirely feasible, I just dont think it send the same image in a role that is supose to look fierce, which I supose is the trade off.

My preference would be to look confident rather than fierce. I tend to think that as a western democracy, feeling the need to look fierce just off your own coast to non-allied vessels in peacetime comes off as a lack of confidence in the depth of your ability to defend your territorial waters.

If the fleet ready escort is actually off doing some real business then it would make sense to replace it similar to how you suggested, but I think it's dangerous for that to become routine.

I think that it would be dangerous if all you had was an OPV, but if you have more capable assets such as MPA's that provide you with confidence in your own ability to defend your territorial waters "only" sending an OPV is an assertive message in itself.

[shark bait]

My preference would be to look confident rather than fierce

A frigate does both!

I do understand your argument, OPV do have an important role to play in UK waters and the capability will be enhanced ten fold by bringing an MPA into the mix (and it will be 100 times better than our current capability). However I think there role should be limited to paroling and catching smugglers and assisting frigates. That why I particularly like the idea of merging them with the border force cutters, they will be very good at the job and lower the RN resources used on it.

If there was a direct need for a frigate elsewhere in the world its should obviously take priority, but whist there isn't I think its right to have one ready in UK waters.

The only other place I can see a rivers working is in the Caribbean, even then there not the right ship for the job, but they're what we've ended up with! There is then the possibility we could utilise them to free up resources and still maintain a presence, but beyond that frigates all the way.