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River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Tempest414
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Tempest414 » 21 Sep 2019, 09:57

OK lets dip into a little bit of fantasy for a bit and say HMG stump up for 3 extra type 31's and 3 more patrol ships what could we do. In and around the time frame of 2023/4 .we will have type 23's starting to be decommissioned this could offer up some kit for the 3 new patrol ships. Should we try and end up with something like three RB3 built to ASW corvette standards

105 meters
Artisan radar
Good CMS
CAPTAS-4
crew 80 on 1.5
EMF bunks 50
Speed 26 knots
Wildcat hangar & Merlin flight deck
1 x 57mm , 2 x 30mm , 1 x Mk-41 VLS allowing 8 CAMM & 6 ASROC

Could this free up 2 T-26's from TAPS

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Repulse
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Repulse » 21 Sep 2019, 10:17

Tempest414 wrote:Could this free up 2 T-26's from TAPS


Can’t remember who said this, but if CASD is our ultimate defence fallback against peer one foes, should we really be reducing the standard of our supporting forces to keep it defended?

Tempest414 wrote:Should we try and end up with something like three RB3 built to ASW corvette standards


Interesting point, but perhaps the logic to make it a classic ASW ship is the wrong way to look at it. How about instead we said “how can the B2 Rivers be extended to take the role as a mothership for off board ASW drones/kit?”.

Given the T31s are now a reality and that whilst defence spending is looking more positive then gloomy, but a far cry from pre 2010 levels, then a think that any ASW optimised River based Sloop will focus on what is absolutely necessary for its role / intended use.

For example, I’d say the assumption should be that it will be operating either within Merlin range from shore or will be in consort with an aviation capable platform (CVF,RFA,T26,T45,T31 or FLSS). As such, removes the need for a hangar to a “nice to have”.
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SW1 » 21 Sep 2019, 10:17

Why would you try and remove type 26 from the primary mission it was designed to do, from the royal navy’s number 1 priority that is to operate passively hunting nuclear submarines that are trying to track our ssbn. If you don’t need type 26 for that then you don’t need type 26 and beyond the 3 ordered switch all to type 31 and save a few quid or increase numbers.

The opv is a maritime security task. Countering Uavs small boats, illegal activity and counter terrorism at sea, protection of off shore infrastructure, sf/commando base.

An river could undertake a future mcm mission when its unmanned systems comes online. And there’s plenty or roles requiring that all round the Atlantic north and south. The question is if funds are tight how much do u want to do it. A gun better suited to uav/small boat attack or configuration like the Brazilian navy variants would be all that is required.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 21 Sep 2019, 10:23

HMS Clyde coming back, before HMS Forth goes south. At where they will cross?


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Repulse
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Repulse » 21 Sep 2019, 11:43

Controversial question perhaps, but how important is the B2 crane and container carrying capability?

I understand that carrying containers can allow “modules” to be added to add certain capabilities depending on the role/mission, but surely that would be done in a dock / harbour side that has either a permanent or mobile crane capability?

The only reasons I can think of then is to (1) deploy boats / UUVs or (2) deploy containers in a HADR operation.

I think #2 is a sub-optimal use of the platform given that a larger RFA, Serco or civilian ship under charter would be more suited - so therefore a nice to have rather than a must.

#1 is probably the reason, but wouldn’t it actually better to extend the 8m Davit already on for the Pacific Rhibs to be capable of deploying 12m craft, like a new LCVP equivalent or a Seagull USV etc?

Removing the crane would then be an ideal position for either a light gun or missile mount. Looking to extend the role of the B2s to operate as minor Littoral warships or even mid Atlantic type escorts, having the ability to add a local defence SAM capability would be required.
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 23 Sep 2019, 07:55

It's a good question, the first batch have also have a crane, has any one ever seen that being used?
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 23 Sep 2019, 08:49

Repulse wrote:#1 is probably the reason, but wouldn’t it actually better to extend the 8m Davit already on for the Pacific Rhibs to be capable of deploying 12m craft, like a new LCVP equivalent or a Seagull USV etc?


The real reason is of course dealing with EU fishing boats that refuse to comply:
"OK, then, you are coming with me"

More seriously, should we not wait to see what unmanned craft the Anglo-French MCM prgrm will bring with it, announcement expected (on UK's part) in the coming year?
- what has been trialled on Hunts may turn out to be "version light" as opposed to the full solution (which of course is likely to be modular, so that you can put parts on smaller vessels and all (or just C2) on a bigger one).

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 25 Sep 2019, 13:18

Another first :thumbup:


donald_of_tokyo
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 25 Sep 2019, 15:53

Looks like the River B2's flight deck is large enough for a Wildcat.

Now, the size of it is 21 m x 13.6 m. Do anyone know, for a Wildcat to land, what size of a flight deck is needed? For a Lynx, I understand it was somewhere around 18 m?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 25 Sep 2019, 16:07

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Looks like the River B2's flight deck is large enough for a Wildcat.

Now, the size of it is 21 m x 13.6 m. Do anyone know, for a Wildcat to land, what size of a flight deck is needed? For a Lynx, I understand it was somewhere around 18 m?


Wiki is saying that the flight deck is merlin capable.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 25 Sep 2019, 23:29

Thanks. My point is, if some USV is carried in the waist and a bit overlapping/overhanging to the flight deck, can it still be Wildcat capable?

The length of the waist is about 9 m. If 3m overlap is ok, River B2 can carry 11-11.5 m long ARCIMS USV and still be capable of Wildcat landing if it requires only 18 m. Current flight deck is ~21 m long, while T23’s flight deck is 23 m long. As RN says River B2 is Merlin capable, it means Merlin can land on ~21 m long flight deck, albeit the margins left will be quite limited.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Tempest414 » 26 Sep 2019, 18:28

For me the best place to start with the B2's is to get on with UAV operations by leasing a few Camcopter's capable of carrying and operating 2 x LMM for Medway's AP-N deployment this will really give the ship a fighting chance against smugglers and so on

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 26 Sep 2019, 18:47

Tempest414 wrote:For me the best place to start with the B2's is to get on with UAV operations by leasing a few Camcopter's capable of carrying and operating 2 x LMM for Medway's AP-N deployment this will really give the ship a fighting chance against smugglers and so on
How likley is it that RN would use LMM from any platform to stop suspected drug dealers in the Caribbean? I would suggest it's not very likley.

A RM sniper using a L115 in .338 Lapua to pierce an outboard on the other hand....

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Tempest414 » 26 Sep 2019, 18:58

Poiuytrewq wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:For me the best place to start with the B2's is to get on with UAV operations by leasing a few Camcopter's capable of carrying and operating 2 x LMM for Medway's AP-N deployment this will really give the ship a fighting chance against smugglers and so on
How likley is it that RN would use LMM from any platform to stop suspected drug dealers in the Caribbean? I would suggest it's not very likley.

A RM sniper using a L115 in .338 Lapua to pierce an outboard on the other hand....


UAV's can't carry snipers and Rivers can't operate helicopters for any time however the UAVs will make a big difference to how the rivers watch activities

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 26 Sep 2019, 19:15

Tempest414 wrote:UAV's can't carry snipers and Rivers can't operate helicopters for any time however the UAVs will make a big difference to how the rivers watch activities
Thats why they should have hangers :D

I agree something like the Camcopter would make a big difference but can't see any need for LMM on APT-N.

Saving the pennies where possible to enhance capabilities where they are needed has to be the way forward IMO.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 27 Sep 2019, 01:11

Caribbean anti smuggler operation is allied operation, not in singleton. So hangar is very good to have, but not critical.

Another important factor is, River B2 needs only 36 crew to operate, while Tides, Waves (and Bays) needs more than 100.

Two or three 2000t 25 knots OPV with flightdeck to refuel allied helo vs a single 18 knot Oiler with a Wildcat. I guess this is what we are comparing?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SKB » 03 Oct 2019, 20:26


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shark bait
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 04 Oct 2019, 08:39

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Caribbean anti smuggler operation is allied operation, not in singleton. So hangar is very good to have, but not critical.


Why does an 'allied operation' change how valuable a hanger is? If the Royal Navy as suppose to be the best, it is right the RN need allies to babysit them because the MOD are to tight?
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 04 Oct 2019, 08:55

shark bait wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:Caribbean anti smuggler operation is allied operation, not in singleton. So hangar is very good to have, but not critical.
Why does an 'allied operation' change how valuable a hanger is? If the Royal Navy as suppose to be the best, it is right the RN need allies to babysit them because the MOD are to tight?
Because there are many "hangars" steaming around you, and RN in Caribbean do not need to be the best in anti smuggling. Actually, if UK want to be the best in anti-smuggling in the region, what you need first is the organic land-based air-cover, not a small and expensive-to-operate Wildcat on an OPV.

Caribbean ocean is an ocean with many lands/islands and can provide plenty of land-based air cover if you have a will.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Tempest414 » 04 Oct 2019, 10:00

donald_of_tokyo wrote:
shark bait wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:Caribbean anti smuggler operation is allied operation, not in singleton. So hangar is very good to have, but not critical.
Why does an 'allied operation' change how valuable a hanger is? If the Royal Navy as suppose to be the best, it is right the RN need allies to babysit them because the MOD are to tight?
Because there are many "hangars" steaming around you, and RN in Caribbean do not need to be the best in anti smuggling. Actually, if UK want to be the best in anti-smuggling in the region, what you need first is the organic land-based air-cover, not a small and expensive-to-operate Wildcat on an OPV.

Caribbean ocean is an ocean with many lands/islands and can provide plenty of land-based air cover if you have a will.


However I do feel that the RB2's do need a organic air asset in the from of a UAV fitted with I Master radar to allow it to find and track targets of interest over larger area

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shark bait
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 04 Oct 2019, 11:21

There is no point in a Navy that has to operate under the cover of land based aircraft. Save all the money and just operate from the shore.

Of course the RN like to operate where there is no infrastructure, so organic aviation remains highly valuable.
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Repulse
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Repulse » 04 Oct 2019, 21:40

shark bait wrote:There is no point in a Navy that has to operate under the cover of land based aircraft. Save all the money and just operate from the shore.

Of course the RN like to operate where there is no infrastructure, so organic aviation remains highly valuable.


But this isn’t “the navy” it’s part of it working in regions where a combination of sea and land based manned aviation resources could give a solid capability at an effective cost.
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 07 Oct 2019, 03:23

From French navy thread

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... l-garonne/

Looking at the French navie’s utility ship usage (the movie is worth watching), I do think the so called “flight deck” of River B2 shall be considered as a multi purpose mission deck, sometime used as a flight deck when needed.

They are using the quator deck as
- flight deck for UAV
- mine laying
- pollution countermeasure
- cargo hold (ISO containers)
- HADR (they carry small LCVP)
- and ASW sonar towing.

(Th French ship is used also as an ocean tud, capable to tow CV, a task out of scope for River B2.)

The same level of utility shall be tested on River B2, I think. Some of them used as an EEZ patrol vessel, some as a utility vessel with part time job as an OPV, and some as a guard ship with modestly improved armaments (like LMM), all using the same hull with modular systems added. This is my inage.

Note that “capable of modular tasks” is far from actually CAN do it. Any systems must be tested, with dedicated well trained crew team, and used (to keep the readiness).

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SKB » 07 Oct 2019, 10:40


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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SKB » 09 Oct 2019, 19:25


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