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Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

Which Anti-Ship Missile Should be Selected for the Type 26?

Lockheed Martin LRASM
143
52%
Kongsberg NSM
63
23%
Boeing Harpoon Next Gen
43
16%
MBDA Exocet Blk III
19
7%
None (stick to guided ammo and FASGW from Helicopters)
8
3%
 
Total votes: 276

RetroSicotte
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby RetroSicotte » 12 Jul 2019, 13:57

Would be excellent if so. Truly the Commonwealth frigate, if it won't be the Anglo Frigate due to the US and their choice :D

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby SKB » 12 Jul 2019, 14:06



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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Pseudo » 12 Jul 2019, 18:31

Repulse wrote:New Zealand is potentially interested in two to three T26s after 2030 according to BAE speculation reported in the FT. I think they’ll struggle budget wise, but (and I know people disagree) this is where a UK subsidised order of ships built in the UK could work, especially if one of the three is for the RN forward based in NZ/Oz integrated into their navies.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.c ... 1c6ab5efd1

I'd have thought that FTI, PPA or even Type 31e would have been more suited to their requirements and budget.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Repulse » 12 Jul 2019, 18:39

Pseudo, budget wise you are probably right, but I suspect they will try for the T26 first with scaled down weapons and towards the end of the build cycle where efficiency should be highest and per unit cost lowest.
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby SW1 » 12 Jul 2019, 18:47

The bigger consideration will be the maintenance and supportability rather than a unit cost. The fact New Zealand could leverage australian services in this regard will have a big bearing on making this an affordable option.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Jake1992 » 12 Jul 2019, 18:54

This is why I would of preferred a design based off a scaled down T26, something like 130m by 19m 5,000t odd with a merlin flight deck and joint hanger mission space ( instead of larger mission bay ) instead of the current T31 set up.

Something like the above sharing as much of T26 design aspects as possible could of been a good spot for nations like New Zealand, Brazil, SA. I feel like it’s a missed opportunity for us really.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby SW1 » 13 Jul 2019, 10:20

Jake1992 wrote:This is why I would of preferred a design based off a scaled down T26, something like 130m by 19m 5,000t odd with a merlin flight deck and joint hanger mission space ( instead of larger mission bay ) instead of the current T31 set up.

Something like the above sharing as much of T26 design aspects as possible could of been a good spot for nations like New Zealand, Brazil, SA. I feel like it’s a missed opportunity for us really.


Doing that of course means the air is free steel is cheap argument around size and cost is wrong. Which of course it is, to a point, in that it costs you more to build the ship but should be cheaper to maintain and upgrade over its life. Putting proper thru life costs front and centre for defence procurement is a novel concept.

If it really is build speed driving cost into the program then coming to some agreement between uk Canada and Australia about future major sub system purchases may allow cost to be reduced and production speeded up. Going to a sole type 26 surface combatant fleet and forgetting about type 31 would also help even if that means a reduction in overall traditional escort numbers

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Jake1992 » 13 Jul 2019, 10:43

SW1 wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:This is why I would of preferred a design based off a scaled down T26, something like 130m by 19m 5,000t odd with a merlin flight deck and joint hanger mission space ( instead of larger mission bay ) instead of the current T31 set up.

Something like the above sharing as much of T26 design aspects as possible could of been a good spot for nations like New Zealand, Brazil, SA. I feel like it’s a missed opportunity for us really.


Doing that of course means the air is free steel is cheap argument around size and cost is wrong. Which of course it is, to a point, in that it costs you more to build the ship but should be cheaper to maintain and upgrade over its life. Putting proper thru life costs front and centre for defence procurement is a novel concept.

If it really is build speed driving cost into the program then coming to some agreement between uk Canada and Australia about future major sub system purchases may allow cost to be reduced and production speeded up. Going to a sole type 26 surface combatant fleet and forgetting about type 31 would also help even if that means a reduction in overall traditional escort numbers


I was thinking of more of family of designs based on the T26, the T26 it’s self, a smaller light frigate design ( for markets like NZ, SA, Brazil ) and a larger destroyer design ( for T45 type replacement )

The RNits self doesn’t have to by them ( even though I’d of preferred a light frigate base off the T26 instead of T31 ) but if the designs are in place it opens up different markets. As many have pointed out the T26 is too much ship and too higher cost for the likes of NZ but a light frigate based of the T26 keeping as much commonality as possible ( ie the bridge lay out, the hull form, weapons lay out ) would be spot on for them and other like them.

I just think it’s a missed opportunity with the rushed cheap T31 which is not enough for the light frigate market and too much for the covert market.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Repulse » 13 Jul 2019, 12:04

SW1 wrote:Going to a sole type 26 surface combatant fleet and forgetting about type 31 would also help even if that means a reduction in overall traditional escort numbers


Agree with your main point, the T31 in its current form is a highway to nowhere, with little chance of export. I would though couple this with an evolution of the River Class (Avenger not Leander) so add a lower end forward presence capability.

As the Iranian conflict shows the world is getting more dangerous and complex - it is not clear that the UK can rely on its traditional European and US friends anymore to protect its interests also. I do see scope however for closer cooperation and integration with the RAN, RCN and RNZN.

Outside of UK EEZ / BOT defence and forward lower level surveillance, constabulary, training and HADR missions / commitments, the RN needs top tier “go anywhere” task groups, that can operate with or without allies (though obviously working with allies is the strong preference) to protect UK global interests. Having 16-18 T26/T45 warships is a must for this ambition - the T31s are nice to haves.
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby jonas » 13 Jul 2019, 16:18

WTF not one of the above posts has anything to do with this being a T26 News Only thread. Is it really to much to ask to adhere to this. Though I realise you all like to get your own points of view across, this is not the thread for it. :thumbdown:

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby seaspear » 14 Jul 2019, 07:57

With apologies to Joans if N.Z decides to acquire the type 26 there would be at least two places where it is being built ,should it be added to these runs it may effect the delivery schedule to those respective navies

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 14 Jul 2019, 09:06

seaspear wrote:With apologies to Joans if N.Z decides to acquire the type 26 there would be at least two places where it is being built ,should it be added to these runs it may effect the delivery schedule to those respective navies
The end of UK T26 build, around 2035-36 is a good coincidence with the need for RNZN ANZAC replacements. Also, it will be very nice, because I'm afraid UK will not be ready to start T45 replacement so early.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby abc123 » 14 Jul 2019, 09:21

Do we agree that T26 will probably be the base for future T45 replacement?
With maybe problems about propulsion/power production if laser weapons replace missiles as AD weapons?
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What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby jonas » 14 Jul 2019, 14:36

Not a matter for this thread.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 22 Jul 2019, 15:28


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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby ThunderPants » 22 Jul 2019, 19:49


[quote="Ron5"]An interesting article from the Telegraph:

How is it possible Canada can build almost double (15) and Australia can build 1 more that the RN's planned 8. Is the RN or HMG planning on cuckolding the UK?. These really are depressing times, every country sees us a fair game even Andorra i suspect and they have not even got a navy.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby shark bait » 23 Jul 2019, 10:47

Interesting to see they already have their eye on the T45 replacement!
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby RetroSicotte » 23 Jul 2019, 13:24

Paywalled for me, unfortunately!

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Lord Jim » 23 Jul 2019, 13:26

Wait till the Swiss deploy their navy on Lake Geneva

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 23 Jul 2019, 18:17

RetroSicotte wrote:Paywalled for me, unfortunately!




Three clocks labelled Ottawa, Glasgow and Adelaide sit on the wall of a meeting room at BAE Systems’ Govan shipyard on the River Clyde.

The site is where the defence giant is building the first batch of a planned eight Type 26 frigates for the Royal Navy.

The cities named under each of the clocks allude to the agreements to sell the ship’s design to Canada, where a local company will build 15 of them under licence, and Australia, where BAE will construct nine vessels based on the Type 26 design. Other countries are also interested.

Britain’s civilian shipbuilding industry is but a shadow of what it once was, but the export success of the Type 26 shows the country is a force to be reckoned with when it comes to building warships.

The first of Type 26s - also known as the City Class frigates - will not be in service with the Navy until the mid-2020s, far too late to deal with the current flare-up in the Gulf after Iran seized a British-flagged tank in the Strait of Hormuz at the weekend.

Building them is a “generational, almost once in a lifetime opportunity”, says Steve Timms, BAE’s head of naval ships.

Although the frigates’ designs will make them some of - if not the - most advanced warships in the world when they start entering service with the Navy in the middle of the next decade, it wasn’t just their military ability that helped secure export customers.

Part of their attraction came from the digital technology being used in their design and construction.

“The Type 26 is the first significant warship programme to depart from the tradition to design ships with drawings,” says Timms.

Designers working on the Type 26 for the UK adopted the technology long used in other sectors, creating ships that exist in a virtual world.

By donning 3D glasses in a special visualisation suite, designers, engineers and even the sailors will crew the vessels have been able to walk through a digital version of the ship long before the first steel is cut.

This allows problems and snags to be discovered and worked out quickly in the flexible and cheap digital realm long before they become real, while their future crews have been able to see how they ships will work and make improvements.

Shipyard workers also use it to plan how they will build the vessels, with details of every single component available at the click of a button, showing where the part is, who is building it and what it's made of.

BAE has a network of visualisation suites, including one in Australia, with updates to the design refreshed every night meaning that no matter where staff are working, they are seeing the latest version.

“This system has played a big part in selling the design abroad,” adds Timms. “We’ve had visits from foreign navies and they can see they benefits of being able to change things quickly and to their own specifications.”

The Australian and Canadian versions of the Type 26 uses the same basic ship design with adaptations to suit each country’s needs, such as preferred weapon systems and sensors.

Across the yard, work is already well under way on HMS Glasgow. Type 26 programme director Nadia Savage says the design of the ship is three quarters complete, with 50pc of its components committed to manufacturing and 35pc of the ship in construction in the site's huge riverside halls.

She adds that the power of the digital design was enough to convince foreign navies to buy into the programme, despite there not being a completed design, let alone a physical ship they could examine.

“This isn’t a paper ship with lots of ramifications still to happen - this is a mature digital model that allows us and our customers to move forward with confidence," Savage says.

It’s not just BAE that will benefit from selling the design abroad. Simple economies of scale mean that with more ships being built, common parts - such as engines, generators, gearboxes - are likely to get cheaper, while creating more work for suppliers.

Out in the shipyard among the sparks of sheet steel being cut into sections which form the ships, head of operations Ross McLure explains how they are being built in blocks, with as many systems as possible put into each one before being slotted into place.

“It’s a lot easier to work when you have the space of not being inside the hull, the way ships were built historically,” he says. The front and back halves of each ship are being built in two separate halls - there isn’t space to build each 7,000 tonne vessel entirely in one building - and the two giant sections will eventually be joined together outside.

Tony Hepburn, product manager for the ships, says the digital design and visualisation suites have made construction work easier.

“We’re seeing fewer problems,” he says. “The old school was to lift a part in and if it didn’t fit then cut it with a burner.”

Laser scans of the ships as they are built show the physical product is within 1mm of the design - levels of accuracy that Hepburn says have surprised some veterans of the shipyard.

However, things aren’t entirely perfect, he admits, giving an example of how a hatch was too close to bulkhead, meaning it couldn’t open easily.

“We moved it 30mm so it now works,” Hepburn says. “But we could easily update the computer so it won’t happen on future ships.”

The shipyard, which has about 3,000 staff, takes on about 100 apprentices a year and they see the Type 26 as a career’s worth of work. “My dad and grandfather worked here,” says one. “This is 20 years' work and whatever follows on from that.”

While BAE may be riding high now, things haven’t always been so positive for its shipbuilding business. Irregular orders from government meant layoffs for staff with little to do and a resulting loss of skills in the industry.

While the future for Glasgow shipbuilders looks certain for several decades, some say that work on the Type 26 has been slowed by government not only to ease the strained Ministry of Defence budget, but also to ensure jobs over a longer period.

This could present problems for the Navy. In 2023 the frigates Type 26s are due to replace start coming out of service.

“The MoD and BAE say that the first Type 26 will be ready in the mid-2020s but it’s not going to be in service until 2027,” says Peter Sandeman, founder of lobby group Save the Royal Navy. “They could be done faster but this way protects jobs and spreads the cost.”

Timms says that Royal Navy’s T26 programme is about three years ahead of Australia’s version, which is roughly another two years down the line.

He denies that this means that Britain is taking the risk by being the first customer for ships that will sell abroad, and therefore likely to face costs for any unexpected problems that crop up that others will avoid.

“We’ve de-risked this programme more than anything that’s gone before thanks to the new technology we’re using,” he says. “And this is something that we were doing anyway - why shouldn’t the country get the maximum benefit out of selling that effort abroad?”

And the effort of creating the Type 26 could produce future savings for the UK, Timms thinks.

“The Type 45 destroyers are going to need to be replaced in the late 2030s,” he says, adding the Type 26 and Type 45 are roughly the same size. “There’s a lot of capability in the Type 26 design, that’s demonstrated by Australia and Canada wanting it. The core of it could become the core of a new destroyer.”

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Dahedd » 23 Jul 2019, 21:23

No brainer really to use the T26 as the basis for the T45 replacement. Aren't a few of the Canadian ships being built more with air defence in mind? Or did I pick that up wrong?

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Jake1992 » 23 Jul 2019, 21:39

Dahedd wrote:No brainer really to use the T26 as the basis for the T45 replacement. Aren't a few of the Canadian ships being built more with air defence in mind? Or did I pick that up wrong?


IMO considering our future AShM and land strike is going to be VLS then we’d need a greater number of Mk41s, there’s also the point that most concede that 48 vls on the T45s isn’t really enough. With all this in mind the T26 as it stands wouldn’t have the space needed to provide all this and keep any realistic growth margins, but a 15m odd plug mid ship could allow all this with out too great redesign need.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby RetroSicotte » 24 Jul 2019, 08:07

Dahedd wrote:No brainer really to use the T26 as the basis for the T45 replacement. Aren't a few of the Canadian ships being built more with air defence in mind? Or did I pick that up wrong?

Murmurs, no concrete statement yet. At least none I've seen.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby shark bait » 24 Jul 2019, 08:45

Given how long the T23 replacement is taking, the MOD would need to start the T45 replacement last year to meet "the late 2030s". That probably makes a T26 derivative the only option. It's a long way off, but unless the nature of surface warfare changes dramatically (unlikely) the T26 is a very strong candidate.
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Repulse » 24 Jul 2019, 09:02

Posted it elsewhere, but Penny Mordaunt’s comments on the value of longer production runs in the Telegraph, rather than always redesigning with builds, adds to the hint also IMO.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/0 ... ught-gulf/
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