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Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

Which Anti-Ship Missile Should be Selected for the Type 26?

Lockheed Martin LRASM
143
52%
Kongsberg NSM
63
23%
Boeing Harpoon Next Gen
43
16%
MBDA Exocet Blk III
19
7%
None (stick to guided ammo and FASGW from Helicopters)
8
3%
 
Total votes: 276

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shark bait
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby shark bait » 26 Jun 2019, 08:25

Nothing would be sudden, and the MOD import billions of pounds of kit already, I struggle to believe and independent Scotland would become an impossible security risk, but the others are fine.

Furthermore treating Scotland like a rebellious colony does nothing to help the union. Scotland is part of the UK, paying UK taxes, so they should have had their share of UK orders.

The MOD made it more difficult than it was as a distraction from budget cuts.
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Tempest414 » 26 Jun 2019, 09:11

The contract could have gone have gone to BAE with the statement and clause that the ships were built in the UK or that if Scotland left the UK that the contract would be finished in Scotland as part of the divorce bill ( which the SNP would have to signed up to ) but no more UK warships would be there after

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby SW1 » 26 Jun 2019, 10:31

Scottish independence is/was a convenient excuse. Further up the Clyde there would have been a much greater headache.

The delay and slow rate of build is/was all to do with money. The initial delay in that MoD let the budget for the program get completely out of control to the point were the realisation finally set in that 13 ships was unaffordable they then spent time working out how to get out of it without political implications see type 31E.

Same for the build rate, Bae have payment periods like any company they expect to paid as they reach certain stages. However MoD has crammed too many programs into a budget they don’t have because for example it was based on efficiency saving and the like which they can’t meet. So the rate of completion goes along at a pace MoD can fund.

It’s not rocket science MoD have been doing it in various guises for decades, despite insisting they’ve changed!

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby xav » 27 Jun 2019, 11:32

Babcock Completes Testing of Air Weapons Handling System for Type 26
Image
Babcock International, the Aerospace and Defence company, has successfully completed Factory Acceptance Testing (FAT) of the Air Weapons Handling System (AWHS) for the Type 26 Global Combat Ship, designed for BAE Systems.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... r-type-26/

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby NickC » 01 Jul 2019, 15:20

Canadian programme budget cost for fifteen T26

Parliamentary Budget Office report puts latest estimate at C$70B ~£42B , ~£2.8B per ship, no figure given for cost of tax included, if DND estimate holding of C$58/60B excluding taxes equate to ~£2.4B per ship, no breakdown of costs, state first ship to be delivered mid 2020's so may be before first RN T26?

"ship construction will begin later (increasing inflation costs), the ship will be larger than assumed in the previous report (increasing real construction costs), and we exclude the cost of spares beyond the initial two years // The Conservative government originally estimated the cost of the ships to be around $26 billion. The DND now states that its estimate is between $56 billion and $60 billion. // The PBO report warned that any delays in building the first ship will be costly. A delay of one year, for instance, could increase costs by almost $2.2 billion, it added.

The federal government hopes to begin building the ships starting in the early 2020s. // Pat Finn, the head of procurement at DND, said the PBO estimates largely align with what the department figures as the cost of the program. He noted that unlike the PBO, the department does not consider tax in its cost figures // The government projects the acquisition phase to begin in the early 2020s with deliveries to begin in the mid-2020s. The delivery of the 15th ship, slated for the late 2040s, will mark the end of that project."

From <https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/cost-of-canadian-navy-warship-project-increases-to-70-billion-according-to-new-pbo-estimate>

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby shark bait » 03 Jul 2019, 08:33

Worth noting that the figures above are the total project cost at 2045 prices.

The report gives an estate of £1.1 billion in 2017 prices. It also estimates FREMM is 20% cheaper and a Burke is 1% more expensive.

https://pbo-dpb.gc.ca/web/default/files/Documents/Reports/2019/Canada-Surface-Combatants-update/CSC_Update_2019_Report_E.pdf
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby NickC » 03 Jul 2019, 13:24

@shark bait, thanks for locating source document, interesting read and good information, will study when have time.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Lord Jim » 03 Jul 2019, 14:09

If it looks like either or both Canada and Australia take delivery of their T-26s before the Royal Navy there needs to be a public enquiry into why out T-26 programme is so slow so that the reasons can be seen by all together with the stupidity and ideocracy.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 03 Jul 2019, 14:39

RN's T26 delivery is 2025. With not even a single steel cut, there is zero possibility RAN and RCN T26 can be delivered earlier. Technologically, it is impossible.

Only if the Clyde get severe fire damaging the whole building, or has big earth quake like 3.11 in Japan (of course UK do not have such earthquake), or other big disaster happen (such as Scotich independence?), RN T26 will be the first to be delivered.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby shark bait » 03 Jul 2019, 15:11

I wouldn't be so sure. The Italians will have delivered a whole class of frigate in the time it take the Brits to finish a single T26.

It is definitely quicker to build quicker than currently planned.
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 03 Jul 2019, 15:49

It doesn't matter, I guess. It is all build "under" BAES control. Also, I do think it is slow partly because it needs more work-load. At least, FREMM is said to be simpler vessel than T26. Simpler means easier to build.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Jensy » 03 Jul 2019, 18:03

shark bait wrote:I wouldn't be so sure. The Italians will have delivered a whole class of frigate in the time it take the Brits to finish a single T26.


They're not alone.

If (big 'if', I appreciate), the Type 31 goes to plan the Royal Navy will have:

- Issued an RFI to industry;
- Run an international completion;
- Cancelled an international competition;
- Restarted it;
- Completed an in-depth design process;
- Approved a final design;
- Built four of five frigates;
- Seen up to three of them enter active service;

In the gap between Steel being cut and the first Type 26 entering service.

shark bait wrote:
The report gives an estate of £1.1 billion in 2017 prices. It also estimates FREMM is 20% cheaper and a Burke is 1% more expensive.


Amazing how pricey a FREMM actually is, even after 15-20 have been built, to a less than cutting edge design. Goes a long way to explain the success of the T26 with Australia and Canada.

Jensy

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Aethulwulf » 03 Jul 2019, 20:02

Given that first T23 ASW is not due to go out of service until 2027, it is not altogether strange that build pace of the T26 is what it is.

Of course the first T23 GP has a OSD of 2023, and hence the hurry up on the T31 programme.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby NickC » 04 Jul 2019, 18:04

Some random thoughts and quotes from the Canadian report, The Parliamentary Budget Officer (PBO), The Cost of Canada’s Surface Combatants: 2019 Update, 20 June 2019

PBO "A key cost driver is the weight of the ship. Ship displacement represents the primary factor in the model’s cost estimating relationships. The 2017 PBO report estimates project costs based on a 5,400 ton lightship weight, which was an estimate based on available designs for the CSC project at the time. With the announced selection of the Type 26 design, we now know the lightship weight of the design to be 6,790 tons (6,900mt), a significant increase".

PBO "The Type 26’s design states a lightship weight (displacement) of 6,790 LT (6,900 MT), an 81 percent increase over the CPF’s (Halifax class) lightship weight of 3,748 tons (~T 23) Therefore, the cost is multiplied by approximately 1.81" (The displacement reflects in the figures quoted for the Australian Hunter class as 8,000t FLD and 8,800t EOL).

It would appear that Canadians do not subscribe to 'steel is cheap and air is free' when the mission bay the one of the main drivers for the increased displacement will cost on a pro rata basis the same as any other ton.

The T26 without mission bay was 5,400t, so if one accepts Canadian concept that the approx ship cost based on tonnage the T26 mission bay cost premium an extra ~28% (6,900/5,400) .

October 2014 FALLON explained to the House of Commons Defence Committee the choice for an Adaptable Mission Bay concept and large flight deck as firstly driven by amphib capability.

"The Mission Bay and adjacent hangar and flight deck provide a significantly larger and more adaptable space than is currently available in the T23 Frigate. The T26 GCS Flexible Mission Bay can accommodate four 12-metre boats for boarding operations for the insertion of Royal Marines or other forces. Alternatively, it can host a range of manned and unmanned surface, subsurface and aerial vehicles. Such is the flexibility and capacity of the space that it could even hold ten 20-foot containers or mission modules containing anything from disaster relief stores to specialist medical or Command and Control facilities.

The spacious hangar can easily accommodate a single Merlin Helicopter or two Wildcat; in extremis, for short surge operations, the Mission Bay could even accommodate a second Merlin. The large flight deck is sized to accept a CH47 Chinook (ramp down) for troop embarkation and disembarkation and can operate a range of smaller helicopters and unmanned aviation vehicles (UAVs) and in concert with the Mission Silo this makes the T26 GCS a truly mission-tuneable platform."

PBO "A second significant factor in the increase in the PBO cost estimate is attributable to the change in the CSC project timeline assumptions. We now assume that the project’s construction phase will begin a full three years later than first assumed in the 2017 PBO study; this affects the start and duration of the project’s development phase while pushing back the start of the project’s construction phase". Think we all agree the snails pace T26 build pushing up costs substantially.

PS the Canadians quote a Arleigh Burke destroyer as only costing an additional 1.1%, state using the USN figures, but the Aegis CMS for Burke is funded by the Missile Defense Agency and not included in USN figures, so as with all reports treat figures with caution.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby dmereifield » 04 Jul 2019, 21:56

Blimey, up to 4 x 12 metre boats? What 12 metre boats does the RN have (or likely to get)?

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Meriv9 » 04 Jul 2019, 22:41

shark bait wrote:Amazing how pricey a FREMM actually is, even after 15-20 have been built, to a less than cutting edge design. Goes a long way to explain the success of the T26 with Australia and Canada.
Jensy


the 20% was calculated against French FREMM a 10% lighter & less capable than the italian version. Double 76mm, Double Hangar, More torpedoes, mobility etc.. etc...

From wiki about the french version
The 11 ships would cost €670 million (~US$760m) each in FY2014, or €860m (~US$980m) including development costs.[1]

Meanwhile the number went down from 11 to 8 ships so i dont know the actual cost the Canadian took as reference.

About the Italian version from a fast search
The last two FREMM cost 764mln (both)= 382
The development cost in 2005 was 450mln for 10 units.
A first batch of maintenance and running should be around 300mln.
So we are around 700-750€mln (850$) per unit.

But Im no expert surely Gabriele has better and more precise numbers than me.

Take in consideration the offer from the Italian-French consortium to build the CSC for 50% of the budget.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby luan_ngo » 05 Jul 2019, 07:39

The fremm fixed price offer didn't include the cost of training, ammunition, supplies that Canada normally includes in its cost estimate so it's an apple vs oranges comparison. The Canadian government cautioned against the comparison because of all the things excluded.

I'm a bit troubled by the pbo report, which primarily focused on the differential displacement between the type 26 and Halifax class. Seems too simplistic.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Lord Jim » 05 Jul 2019, 22:59

Hopefully we will not have another "Merlin" fiasco!

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby seaspear » 07 Jul 2019, 01:54

dmereifield wrote:Blimey, up to 4 x 12 metre boats? What 12 metre boats does the RN have (or likely to get)?

It may not be the 12 metre boats but remote controlled surfaced mine hunting craft ,underwater craft for various missions ,even unmaned aircraft ,and anything else they think of in the various defence centres that can be added to the ship for its mission ,should be interesting.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 07 Jul 2019, 04:25

Atlas UK ARCIMS drones are 11.5 m long. I understand some of the work boats, manned, ordered from Atlas is also 11.5 m long.

[EDIT] https://www.atlas-elektronik.com/soluti ... craft.html

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 07 Jul 2019, 12:31

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Atlas UK ARCIMS drones are 11.5 m long. I understand some of the work boats, manned, ordered from Atlas is also 11.5 m long.

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/in-foc ... oyal-navy/
They are
x13 11m workboats
x3 13.8m boats (for PoW)
x18 15m workboats
and x1 18m Magpie.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Poiuytrewq » 12 Jul 2019, 09:51

Meanwhile progress on HMS Glasgow continues, slowly.
D_QcwyBUYAABfol.jpeg
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Repulse » 12 Jul 2019, 11:44

New Zealand is potentially interested in two to three T26s after 2030 according to BAE speculation reported in the FT. I think they’ll struggle budget wise, but (and I know people disagree) this is where a UK subsidised order of ships built in the UK could work, especially if one of the three is for the RN forward based in NZ/Oz integrated into their navies.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.c ... 1c6ab5efd1
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby SKB » 12 Jul 2019, 12:56

I-see-diagram.... :shock: :clap:

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 12 Jul 2019, 13:24

Repulse wrote:New Zealand is potentially interested in two to three T26s after 2030 according to BAE speculation reported in the FT. I think they’ll struggle budget wise, but (and I know people disagree) this is where a UK subsidised order of ships built in the UK could work, especially if one of the three is for the RN forward based in NZ/Oz integrated into their navies.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.c ... 1c6ab5efd1
According to NZ defense capability plan 2019, RNZN ANZAC replacement will see investment decisions after 2030, to replace them around mid-2030s.

T26 hull-1 will hit the water 2 years from now (say, 2021), fitted out, tested, certified and then delivered to RN on 2025 (and then commission on 2027). The last hull is expected to commission on 2035.

If ever RNZN could adopt T26, it matches well.

RAN’s T26 is basically planned to be delivered on 2026 (hull-1), with the last hull on 2042 (in 2018 BAE Australia brochure, not Australian government official doc.)

So, in any case, T26 production will be still running (may be also for Canadian version).

Likely or not, I have no idea. Decision will be taken on 2030, a decade from now.


#sorry it is a cross-post of my own, from UKDJ


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