Warrior Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

[mr.fred]

About £2.5bn to replace them like for like with CV90?

Closer to £3.2bn at current rates, then add inflation.

[SW1]

Is this not really a function of the fact that Ajax has gone about so far right now and boxer is only slowly coming in that if warrior doesn’t soldier on the alternative is walking rather than some dramatic u-turn

Or the more obvious outcome of cancelling WCSP and the painfully obvious outcome of Ukraine being that IFV are still necessary...

Is that an outcome of Ukraine?

Maybe to some people it is, it was certainly obvious to many before that.

The only logical way out of this I can see is to commit to Boxer with medium calibre turret. That takes variety of flavours from uncrewed OTS 30mm to crewed CT40, and anything in-between, IMO.

Whatever it ends up being it has to ensure it can get there first.

The biggest lesson relearned I see from Ukraine is dont lose territory it’s incredibly expensive to take it back no matter who you are.

[Poiuytrewq]

The biggest lesson relearned I see from Ukraine is dont lose territory it’s incredibly expensive to take it back no matter who you are.

Hence the reason for rapid expeditionary forces to blunt an attack asap.

Also the importance of a rapidly deployed heavily armoured force to reverse an infiltration before densely mined fixed positions can be established is crucial.

Amazing how the same lessons need to be relearned on a regular basis.

[RunningStrong]

Is this not really a function of the fact that Ajax has gone about so far right now and boxer is only slowly coming in that if warrior doesn’t soldier on the alternative is walking rather than some dramatic u-turn

Or the more obvious outcome of cancelling WCSP and the painfully obvious outcome of Ukraine being that IFV are still necessary...

Is that an outcome of Ukraine?

Maybe to some people it is, it was certainly obvious to many before that.

The only logical way out of this I can see is to commit to Boxer with medium calibre turret. That takes variety of flavours from uncrewed OTS 30mm to crewed CT40, and anything in-between, IMO.

Whatever it ends up being it has to ensure it can get there first.

The biggest lesson relearned I see from Ukraine is dont lose territory it’s incredibly expensive to take it back no matter who you are.

Whilst I agree with the latter, I'm not convinced the former is best addressed by AFV.

Had Ukraine been suitably equipped with the anti aircraft and anti armour capabilities it has today it would have been a very different first day of the war.

[Tempest414]

On the Plus side we still have 359 Warriors to put them on

About £2.5bn to replace them like for like with CV90?

I think where we are headed with the army right now and with what kit we have coming in

2 x Armoured brigades of

Brigade HQ = Boxer
1 x Cavaly regt = Ajax
1 x Armoured regt = Challenger 3 & Ajax
2 x Infantry Battalions = Boxer
1 x Artillery regt = K-9A3 , M270A2
1 x Logistics regt = MAN armoured trucks
1 x REME regt = Boxer & Patria 6x6
1 x Engineer regt = CH=2 & Atlas , Apollo
1 x Medical Crops regt = Patria 6x6
for this I see a need for 600 x Boxer , 350 Ajax , 100 CH-3 , 220 Patria 6x6 , 32 x K-9 , 32 x M270

given that we are buying or upgrading

146 x CH 3
65 x M270A2
623 x Boxer
589 x Ajax

For me we are in a good place we just need to adapted Boxer to have a remote 30 or 40mm turret

We need to cap Boxer at 800 and buy Patria 6x6 or Bushmaster

[sol]

The biggest lesson relearned I see from Ukraine is dont lose territory it’s incredibly expensive to take it back no matter who you are.

In the case of future war, losing territory is inevitable, unless you are expecting that NATO will heavily fortify whole border with Russia, with trenches, strongpoint and mines and man whole line 24/7, which will never happen. Unless Russians fight like idiots, no matter what, NATO can not prevent losing some territory somewhere.

2 x Armoured brigades of

Brigade HQ = Boxer
1 x Cavaly regt = Ajax
1 x Armoured regt = Challenger 3 & Ajax
2 x Infantry Battalions = Boxer
1 x Artillery regt = K-9A3 , M270A2
1 x Logistics regt = MAN armoured trucks
1 x REME regt = Boxer & Patria 6x6
1 x Engineer regt = CH=2 & Atlas , Apollo
1 x Medical Crops regt = Patria 6x6
for this I see a need for 600 x Boxer , 350 Ajax , 100 CH-3 , 220 Patria 6x6 , 32 x K-9 , 32 x M270

The British Army will never have mix artillery and MLRS units on the brigade level. MLRS is divisional/corps level asset and UK will use them centralised as part of DRS.

Atlas and Apollo will operate inside Ajax regiments, not as part of some engineer unit.

[SW1]

The biggest lesson relearned I see from Ukraine is dont lose territory it’s incredibly expensive to take it back no matter who you are.

In the case of future war, losing territory is inevitable, unless you are expecting that NATO will heavily fortify whole border with Russia, with trenches, strongpoint and mines and man whole line 24/7, which will never happen. Unless Russians fight like idiots, no matter what, NATO can not prevent losing some territory somewhere.

2 x Armoured brigades of

Brigade HQ = Boxer
1 x Cavaly regt = Ajax
1 x Armoured regt = Challenger 3 & Ajax
2 x Infantry Battalions = Boxer
1 x Artillery regt = K-9A3 , M270A2
1 x Logistics regt = MAN armoured trucks
1 x REME regt = Boxer & Patria 6x6
1 x Engineer regt = CH=2 & Atlas , Apollo
1 x Medical Crops regt = Patria 6x6
for this I see a need for 600 x Boxer , 350 Ajax , 100 CH-3 , 220 Patria 6x6 , 32 x K-9 , 32 x M270

The British Army will never have mix artillery and MLRS units on the brigade level. MLRS is divisional/corps level asset and UK will use them centralised as part of DRS.

Atlas and Apollo will operate inside Ajax regiments, not as part of some engineer unit.

NATO has significant surveillance assets, the five eyes partners had Russian moves in Ukraine right on the money several months before they moved.

With this information and rapidly deployable forces they should be able to make the border so prickly that the Russians would not dare moving over it where ever they start or consider a buildup.

So not inevitable at all.

[Tempest414]

The biggest lesson relearned I see from Ukraine is dont lose territory it’s incredibly expensive to take it back no matter who you are.

In the case of future war, losing territory is inevitable, unless you are expecting that NATO will heavily fortify whole border with Russia, with trenches, strongpoint and mines and man whole line 24/7, which will never happen. Unless Russians fight like idiots, no matter what, NATO can not prevent losing some territory somewhere.

2 x Armoured brigades of

Brigade HQ = Boxer
1 x Cavaly regt = Ajax
1 x Armoured regt = Challenger 3 & Ajax
2 x Infantry Battalions = Boxer
1 x Artillery regt = K-9A3 , M270A2
1 x Logistics regt = MAN armoured trucks
1 x REME regt = Boxer & Patria 6x6
1 x Engineer regt = CH=2 & Atlas , Apollo
1 x Medical Crops regt = Patria 6x6
for this I see a need for 600 x Boxer , 350 Ajax , 100 CH-3 , 220 Patria 6x6 , 32 x K-9 , 32 x M270

The British Army will never have mix artillery and MLRS units on the brigade level. MLRS is divisional/corps level asset and UK will use them centralised as part of DRS.

Atlas and Apollo will operate inside Ajax regiments, not as part of some engineer unit.

this is all well and good but we don't have a Division in real terms to deploy and the best we can hope to deploy is a Brigade and said brigade will need proper artillery support and it is not as if the UK has not had mixed AS-90 and M270 regts before

Just for me we don't have enough Artillery to have a Deep Fires BCT as it leaves the Brigades with no artillery support. Now with this said and what I have put forward as a new look 3rd Div with

4 x Cavalry regts
2 x Armoured regts
10 Infantry battalions
4 artillery regts
4 x Logistics regts
4 x Engineer regts
4 x REME regts

Split into 4 Brigades if we could deploy this formation then the Div HQ could remove the M270A2 from the brigades and form them under the Division

[sol]

NATO has significant surveillance assets, the five eyes partners had Russian moves in Ukraine right on the money several months before they moved.

With this information and rapidly deployable forces they should be able to make the border so prickly that the Russians would not dare moving over it where ever they start or consider a buildup.

So not inevitable at all.

And ... NATO could move additional force in the region but will not start to dig tranches and lay minefields on any sign of threat. It will be more show of force than real fortification of border which is now more than 1000km long. And NATO can not just keep those force indefinitely as it has to think about rotations which is less problem Russians as they would do buildup in their own country. Thinking that in case of Russian attack, NATO will prevent it from taking any territory is silly. But that is why NATO is needing strong armoured reaction force, to prevent Russians to fortify territory they occupy, and take it back as soon as possible.

this is all well and good but we don't have a Division in real terms to deploy and the best we can hope to deploy is a Brigade and said brigade will need proper artillery support and it is not as if the UK has not had mixed AS-90 and M270 regts before

Just for me we don't have enough Artillery to have a Deep Fires BCT as it leaves the Brigades with no artillery support. Now with this said and what I have put forward as a new look 3rd Div with

If UK can not provide full division it could provide divisional HQ and even if it could not provide divisional HQ it would provide elements to whichever division UK brigade will be attached. DRS has two recce and two MLRS regiments, will it have additional gun elements or not is less important. It will still act as formation, not as a battery or two attached to brigade.

[Tempest414]

NATO has significant surveillance assets, the five eyes partners had Russian moves in Ukraine right on the money several months before they moved.

With this information and rapidly deployable forces they should be able to make the border so prickly that the Russians would not dare moving over it where ever they start or consider a buildup.

So not inevitable at all.

And ... NATO could move additional force in the region but will not start to dig tranches and lay minefields on any sign of threat. It will be more show of force than real fortification of border which is now more than 1000km long. And NATO can not just keep those force indefinitely as it has to think about rotations which is less problem Russians as they would do buildup in their own country. Thinking that in case of Russian attack, NATO will prevent it from taking any territory is silly. But that is why NATO is needing strong armoured reaction force, to prevent Russians to fortify territory they occupy, and take it back as soon as possible.

this is all well and good but we don't have a Division in real terms to deploy and the best we can hope to deploy is a Brigade and said brigade will need proper artillery support and it is not as if the UK has not had mixed AS-90 and M270 regts before

Just for me we don't have enough Artillery to have a Deep Fires BCT as it leaves the Brigades with no artillery support. Now with this said and what I have put forward as a new look 3rd Div with

If UK can not provide full division it could provide divisional HQ and even if it could not provide divisional HQ it would provide elements to whichever division UK brigade will be attached. DRS has two recce and two MLRS regiments, will it have additional gun elements or not is less important. It will still act as formation, not as a battery or two attached to brigade.

You are right as things stand

Maybe the better route maybe for the DRS to have just the 2 Cavalry and 2 M270A2 regts freeing up the SP gun regiments for the Brigades also maybe it is time for 29 regt to come back to the army full time and the RM to have there own overwatch sqn this could mean we could have 5 brigades with organic artillery plus the DRS

[SW1]

NATO has significant surveillance assets, the five eyes partners had Russian moves in Ukraine right on the money several months before they moved.

With this information and rapidly deployable forces they should be able to make the border so prickly that the Russians would not dare moving over it where ever they start or consider a buildup.

So not inevitable at all.

And ... NATO could move additional force in the region but will not start to dig tranches and lay minefields on any sign of threat. It will be more show of force than real fortification of border which is now more than 1000km long. And NATO can not just keep those force indefinitely as it has to think about rotations which is less problem Russians as they would do buildup in their own country. Thinking that in case of Russian attack, NATO will prevent it from taking any territory is silly. But that is why NATO is needing strong armoured reaction force, to prevent Russians to fortify territory they occupy, and take it back as soon as possible.

this is all well and good but we don't have a Division in real terms to deploy and the best we can hope to deploy is a Brigade and said brigade will need proper artillery support and it is not as if the UK has not had mixed AS-90 and M270 regts before

Just for me we don't have enough Artillery to have a Deep Fires BCT as it leaves the Brigades with no artillery support. Now with this said and what I have put forward as a new look 3rd Div with

If UK can not provide full division it could provide divisional HQ and even if it could not provide divisional HQ it would provide elements to whichever division UK brigade will be attached. DRS has two recce and two MLRS regiments, will it have additional gun elements or not is less important. It will still act as formation, not as a battery or two attached to brigade.

Nato reaction force is now 300k strong it can keep them in position for as long as is necessary as they are all in NATOs own countries.

It was Bush going to Moscow to talk to Gorbachev that allowed 7 corp to move out of Germany to throw Iraq out of Kuwait. It the principle task defend the nato border it’s comes before all others..

[Poiuytrewq]

…that is why NATO is needing strong armoured reaction force, to prevent Russians to fortify territory they occupy, and take it back as soon as possible.

I agree that an armoured rapid reaction force is important but due to the distances involved how quickly could it reliably be deployed and would it even make it to the incursion before getting attacked?

IMO what Ukraine lacked was an air mobile rapid reaction force. Virtually everything required should be able to be deployed via underslung Chinook. A SupaCat HMT including 105mm, 81mm/120mm mortar, Brimstone and GMLRS would be perfect. Large quantities of Javelin, NLAW, GPMG, L1A1 and GMG would be crucial.

Covering all avenues of approach these Brigades could buy valuable time and massively attrit an enemy, most especially the leading armoured vehicles therefore blunting the incursion. Speed and evasion would be the only real defence until the raipid armoured reaction forces started to arrive.

IMO the UK should provide a Div sized force for this. It would be a welcome insurance policy for many European countries. How many other Euro NATO countries possess such a force?

[mr.fred]

I agree that an armoured rapid reaction force is important but due to the distances involved how quickly could it reliably be deployed and would it even make it to the incursion before getting attacked?

IMO what Ukraine lacked was an air mobile rapid reaction force. Virtually everything required should be able to be deployed via underslung Chinook. A SupaCat HMT including 105mm, 81mm/120mm mortar, Brimstone and GMLRS would be perfect. Large quantities of Javelin, NLAW, GPMG, L1A1 and GMG would be crucial.

Covering all avenues of approach these Brigades could buy valuable time and massively attrit an enemy, most especially the leading armoured vehicles therefore blunting the incursion. Speed and evasion would be the only real defence until the raipid armoured reaction forces started to arrive.

IMO the UK should provide a Div sized force for this. It would be a welcome insurance policy for many European countries. How many other Euro NATO countries possess such a force?

I was reading a RUSI paper this afternoon that was advocating that this was what Strike was for.
It did also make the point that such a formation was of limited use without conventional heavy formations and artillery backing it up.
https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/p ... cept-force

[sol]

... also maybe it is time for 29 regt to come back to the army full time and the RM to have there own overwatch sqn this could mean we could have 5 brigades with organic artillery plus the DRS

That would be waste of money and years of specialist training. If it needs another artillery regiment, the Army should just raise new one.

Nato reaction force is now 300k strong it can keep them in position for as long as is necessary as they are all in NATOs own countries.

It is not, it is planned to be raised to 300k, and it covers air, naval and land part. Currently, it is still one brigade deployable in days (UK 7th Infantry Brigade at this moment), with another two brigades to follow in next weeks, up to one month. Even when increased, land component would be just one part of it, with frontline troops even lesser part of that.

I don't think that even NATO strategy is favoring attrition battles for any village or tree line to prevent enemy taking any ground, unless really necessary.

IMO what Ukraine lacked was an air mobile rapid reaction force. Virtually everything required should be able to be deployed via underslung Chinook. A SupaCat HMT including 105mm, 81mm/120mm mortar, Brimstone and GMLRS would be perfect. Large quantities of Javelin, NLAW, GPMG, L1A1 and GMG would be crucial.

Covering all avenues of approach these Brigades could buy valuable time and massively attrit an enemy, most especially the leading armoured vehicles therefore blunting the incursion. Speed and evasion would be the only real defence until the raipid armoured reaction forces started to arrive.

Considering Russian air force and air defence assets in Ukraine, it is highly unlikely that air mobile force would be of much use. From what I saw, Ukrainian "air mobile" brigades were much more successful and useful due basically being more a mechanised force equipped with BMPs and tanks.

No country, with exception of US, possess enough heavy lifting helicopter force to enable movements of whole brigade with all its equipment over long distances. But in any case, such force would be really weak, and would only be able to resist for limited time due lack of logistic support and definitely not be able to "cover all avenues of approach". And it would hardy be able to achieve heavy attrition without suffering heavy attrition itself.

IMO the UK should provide a Div sized force for this. It would be a welcome insurance policy for many European countries. How many other Euro NATO countries possess such a force?

UK just does not have capability to provide such a force nor does any Euro NATO country by itself.

UK can not do that, nor any other Euro NATO force.

[SW1]

All the commentary out of nato this past years or so says the same thing not an inch of ground will be conceded.

With the movement of a us armoured, Stryker and airborne brigade into Eastern Europe I think you’re wrong, not to mention all of European nato doing something similar to lessor degrees individually.

NATO provides considerable overmatch in mass, quality and training to the Russian foe.

[Tempest414]

... also maybe it is time for 29 regt to come back to the army full time and the RM to have there own overwatch sqn this could mean we could have 5 brigades with organic artillery plus the DRS

That would be waste of money and years of specialist training. If it needs another artillery regiment, the Army should just raise new one.

Nato reaction force is now 300k strong it can keep them in position for as long as is necessary as they are all in NATOs own countries.

It is not, it is planned to be raised to 300k, and it covers air, naval and land part. Currently, it is still one brigade deployable in days (UK 7th Infantry Brigade at this moment), with another two brigades to follow in next weeks, up to one month. Even when increased, land component would be just one part of it, with frontline troops even lesser part of that.

I don't think that even NATO strategy is favoring attrition battles for any village or tree line to prevent enemy taking any ground, unless really necessary.

IMO what Ukraine lacked was an air mobile rapid reaction force. Virtually everything required should be able to be deployed via underslung Chinook. A SupaCat HMT including 105mm, 81mm/120mm mortar, Brimstone and GMLRS would be perfect. Large quantities of Javelin, NLAW, GPMG, L1A1 and GMG would be crucial.

Covering all avenues of approach these Brigades could buy valuable time and massively attrit an enemy, most especially the leading armoured vehicles therefore blunting the incursion. Speed and evasion would be the only real defence until the raipid armoured reaction forces started to arrive.

Considering Russian air force and air defence assets in Ukraine, it is highly unlikely that air mobile force would be of much use. From what I saw, Ukrainian "air mobile" brigades were much more successful and useful due basically being more a mechanised force equipped with BMPs and tanks.

No country, with exception of US, possess enough heavy lifting helicopter force to enable movements of whole brigade with all its equipment over long distances. But in any case, such force would be really weak, and would only be able to resist for limited time due lack of logistic support and definitely not be able to "cover all avenues of approach". And it would hardy be able to achieve heavy attrition without suffering heavy attrition itself.

IMO the UK should provide a Div sized force for this. It would be a welcome insurance policy for many European countries. How many other Euro NATO countries possess such a force?

UK just does not have capability to provide such a force nor does any Euro NATO country by itself.

UK can not do that, nor any other Euro NATO force.

Maybe maybe not yes 29 regt gunners are given extra training but this is on going so in real terms those that are in 29 regt today would move to the newly form RM overwatch sqn using Brimstone or Exactor fitted to Vikings and 29 regt with some of gunners it has now would move back to the army and rebuilt with new troops keeping good parts of it learning's and join a second rapid reaction brigade

Also as I have said if the big problem with the army is keeping manpower then we should look to up the number of Gurkha's form 4000 to 8000 or 10000 with say the extra 6000 troop this could allow 2 x Infantry , 2 x Artillery , 3 x Logistics , 1 x REME & 1 x Signals

[sol]

Maybe maybe not yes 29 regt gunners are given extra training but this is on going so in real terms those that are in 29 regt today would move to the newly form RM overwatch sqn using Brimstone or Exactor fitted to Vikings and 29 regt with some of gunners it has now would move back to the army and rebuilt with new troops keeping good parts of it learning's and join a second rapid reaction brigade

Brimstone can not replace gun. Moving men from 29th to RM is pointless if RM needs to create a new unit so that the Army could do with current one whatever they want. Just create a new artillery regiment if needed.

[Tempest414]

Maybe maybe not yes 29 regt gunners are given extra training but this is on going so in real terms those that are in 29 regt today would move to the newly form RM overwatch sqn using Brimstone or Exactor fitted to Vikings and 29 regt with some of gunners it has now would move back to the army and rebuilt with new troops keeping good parts of it learning's and join a second rapid reaction brigade

Brimstone can not replace gun. Moving men from 29th to RM is pointless if RM needs to create a new unit so that the Army could do with current one whatever they want. Just create a new artillery regiment if needed.

Clearly not read what I have said as in real terms I said I would use the 29th as the base to build a new 29th and RM OW sqn also with the way the RM are going would a mix of 120mm mortar , hero 120 and Brimstone work for them

[sol]

... I would use the 29th as the base to build a new 29th ....

What is a point? Would RM budget be uplifted so that they could create a new unit (especially considering that even for current Commando Force reorganisation there is not enough money)? What is wrong with current arrangement? Why not just raise a new artillery regiment?

[Jackstar]

Confirmation that warrior will be replaced incrementally over a period of years.

"UK reveals 708 Warrior IFVs left in British Army service."
The Warrior IFV was recently the beneficiary of a £20m ($25.8m) contract for the installation of rear-mounted cameras due to health of safety requirements. The contract will be able to equip 359 vehicles with the rear-mounted camera, enough for just over half the Warrior fleet. "

https://www.army-technology.com/news/uk ... e/#catfish

[Jackstar]

Confirmation of the contract to fit test view cameras on warrior.
This has to done to meet safety standards and of course the headline figure will include fitting and support over a period of time.
The Boxer won't join the front line field army an masse and for a period of years there will be a mixed fleet.


Rheinmetall AG, has been awarded a £10.6m contract to deliver 359 camera units for installation on the British Army’s Warrior fleet.
https://www.army-technology.com/news/br ... or-safety/

[RunningStrong]

They lot should end up being quite standalone, and aside from harnesses and IKEE you'd hope it could be fitted to another vehicle in future (still plenty of Bulldogs in service).

[mrclark303]

They lot should end up being quite standalone, and aside from harnesses and IKEE you'd hope it could be fitted to another vehicle in future (still plenty of Bulldogs in service).

God forbid we have to deploy obsolete Warriors on a combat operation with a sophisticated enemy.

20 years of ignoring our armoured / mechanised forced have really come home to roost now.

What is the armoured, tracked and armed replacement for Warrior now it's upgrade has been cancelled?

[RunningStrong]

They lot should end up being quite standalone, and aside from harnesses and IKEE you'd hope it could be fitted to another vehicle in future (still plenty of Bulldogs in service).

God forbid we have to deploy obsolete Warriors on a combat operation with a sophisticated enemy.

20 years of ignoring our armoured / mechanised forced have really come home to roost now.

What is the armoured, tracked and armed replacement for Warrior now it's upgrade has been cancelled?

There is no IFV replacement planned at this time. Warrior will likely leave service no later than 2030, I (my opinion) expect.

Warrior infantry units will move to Boxer. The Artillery will move to AJAX.

[mrclark303]

They lot should end up being quite standalone, and aside from harnesses and IKEE you'd hope it could be fitted to another vehicle in future (still plenty of Bulldogs in service).

God forbid we have to deploy obsolete Warriors on a combat operation with a sophisticated enemy.

20 years of ignoring our armoured / mechanised forced have really come home to roost now.

What is the armoured, tracked and armed replacement for Warrior now it's upgrade has been cancelled?

There is no IFV replacement planned at this time. Warrior will likely leave service no later than 2030, I (my opinion) expect.

Warrior infantry units will move to Boxer. The Artillery will move to AJAX.

I see, hopefully Boxer with a turret?