New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

[tomuk]

Actual long term benefit to British Industry is considerable in the case of the Leonardo offering - which has also been selected by Poland and the US, so it's not exactly an orphan like Ajax. Shutting down a major Uk industry just as we're verging on a hot war with Russia? Not terribly smart. We're going to need Westland for Proteus and whatever replaces Merlin. And the USD is going through the roof long term.

IMHO Service preference is not the be all and end all, especially given the Army's track record in destruction of the British AFV industry.

I find it difficult to see the long term benefits of building helicopters from kits of parts created elsewhere.

Its at least more beneficial then buying a complete aircraft made from a kit in Poland.

[new guy]

PS Thatcher was correct, Westlands should have gone to Sikorsky and Puma should have stayed French.

Can blame the perfidious dog murderer, Heseltine for that....

Not to delve too deeply into alt-history, but feel Sikorsky would have been a far better long-time partner for Westland. Lots of success in the past, particularly Wessex and Sea King. Carry that on with a WS-70 Black Hawk and (jumping into the deep end here) eventually replacing Chinook with a CH-53 variant.

Could even see a circumstance where S-92 is strangled in the cradle by a civil focused AW101 variant, possibly with more powerful twin engines from P&W.

On a related note. I only realised yesterday that Boeing is part of the Airbus H175M team... curious bedfellows.

[SD67]

Actual long term benefit to British Industry is considerable in the case of the Leonardo offering - which has also been selected by Poland and the US, so it's not exactly an orphan like Ajax. Shutting down a major Uk industry just as we're verging on a hot war with Russia? Not terribly smart. We're going to need Westland for Proteus and whatever replaces Merlin. And the USD is going through the roof long term.

IMHO Service preference is not the be all and end all, especially given the Army's track record in destruction of the British AFV industry.

I find it difficult to see the long term benefits of building helicopters from kits of parts created elsewhere.

Then I guess Leonardo shouldn't have partnered with Boeing to sell AW139, and BAE shouldnt have had to partner with McDD on Goshawk
My understanding is the Westland site is becoming a centre of excellence on transmissions within Leonardo helicopters, and would also be production source for future export bids. There are also potential non military applications of that or related platforms -SAR, Offshore support.

[new guy]

Actual long term benefit to British Industry is considerable in the case of the Leonardo offering - which has also been selected by Poland and the US, so it's not exactly an orphan like Ajax. Shutting down a major Uk industry just as we're verging on a hot war with Russia? Not terribly smart. We're going to need Westland for Proteus and whatever replaces Merlin. And the USD is going through the roof long term.

IMHO Service preference is not the be all and end all, especially given the Army's track record in destruction of the British AFV industry.

I find it difficult to see the long term benefits of building helicopters from kits of parts created elsewhere.

parts created elsewhere.... Not heard of GCAP,Typhoon, F-35, Airbus, e.c.t?

[new guy]

On a related note. I only realised yesterday that Boeing is part of the Airbus H175M team... curious bedfellows.

That's it settled, H175M it is.

[Ron5]

Actual long term benefit to British Industry is considerable in the case of the Leonardo offering - which has also been selected by Poland and the US, so it's not exactly an orphan like Ajax. Shutting down a major Uk industry just as we're verging on a hot war with Russia? Not terribly smart. We're going to need Westland for Proteus and whatever replaces Merlin. And the USD is going through the roof long term.

IMHO Service preference is not the be all and end all, especially given the Army's track record in destruction of the British AFV industry.

I find it difficult to see the long term benefits of building helicopters from kits of parts created elsewhere.

Its at least more beneficial then buying a complete aircraft made from a kit in Poland.

Nobody is offering that.

[SW1]

I thought this an interesting line in the government announcement yesterday on procurement shakeup.

“ On exportability, yesterday I published the next stage of our New Medium Helicopter competition – this includes a strong weighting for exports to ensure the high quality rotary work it will support in the UK is sustainable over the long-term.

Such an approach to weighting exportability, where appropriate, will become the default from April 8th.”

[Ron5]

Actual long term benefit to British Industry is considerable in the case of the Leonardo offering - which has also been selected by Poland and the US, so it's not exactly an orphan like Ajax. Shutting down a major Uk industry just as we're verging on a hot war with Russia? Not terribly smart. We're going to need Westland for Proteus and whatever replaces Merlin. And the USD is going through the roof long term.

IMHO Service preference is not the be all and end all, especially given the Army's track record in destruction of the British AFV industry.

I find it difficult to see the long term benefits of building helicopters from kits of parts created elsewhere.

Then I guess Leonardo shouldn't have partnered with Boeing to sell AW139, and BAE shouldnt have had to partner with McDD on Goshawk
My understanding is the Westland site is becoming a centre of excellence on transmissions within Leonardo helicopters, and would also be production source for future export bids. There are also potential non military applications of that or related platforms -SAR, Offshore support.

Your logic escapes me.

However, if Westland's gets an increased amount of "noble" work i.e. not just assembling kits, from an AW149 purchase, I would be very surprised. Pleasantly surprised.

As for exporting AW149's from the UK, that's a dead duck. Poland got that deal.

[Ron5]

I thought this an interesting line in the government announcement yesterday on procurement shakeup.

“ On exportability, yesterday I published the next stage of our New Medium Helicopter competition – this includes a strong weighting for exports to ensure the high quality rotary work it will support in the UK is sustainable over the long-term.

Such an approach to weighting exportability, where appropriate, will become the default from April 8th.”

Means jack shyt unless the scoring and judgements are made public. Which they won't be.

For example, if this had been the rule from day 1, I'm sure the UK would be the sole source for Ajax exports. Which would have been estimated as billions - to Australia, USA, Hungary, etc etc Any reasoning behind such estimates would be kept far from pubic gaze.

[tomuk]

I thought this an interesting line in the government announcement yesterday on procurement shakeup.

“ On exportability, yesterday I published the next stage of our New Medium Helicopter competition – this includes a strong weighting for exports to ensure the high quality rotary work it will support in the UK is sustainable over the long-term.

Such an approach to weighting exportability, where appropriate, will become the default from April 8th.”

Means jack shyt unless the scoring and judgements are made public. Which they won't be.

For example, if this had been the rule from day 1, I'm sure the UK would be the sole source for Ajax exports. Which would have been estimated as billions - to Australia, USA, Hungary, etc etc Any reasoning behind such estimates would be kept far from pubic gaze.

What Ajax exports?

[SD67]

Actual long term benefit to British Industry is considerable in the case of the Leonardo offering - which has also been selected by Poland and the US, so it's not exactly an orphan like Ajax. Shutting down a major Uk industry just as we're verging on a hot war with Russia? Not terribly smart. We're going to need Westland for Proteus and whatever replaces Merlin. And the USD is going through the roof long term.

IMHO Service preference is not the be all and end all, especially given the Army's track record in destruction of the British AFV industry.

I find it difficult to see the long term benefits of building helicopters from kits of parts created elsewhere.

Then I guess Leonardo shouldn't have partnered with Boeing to sell AW139, and BAE shouldnt have had to partner with McDD on Goshawk
My understanding is the Westland site is becoming a centre of excellence on transmissions within Leonardo helicopters, and would also be production source for future export bids. There are also potential non military applications of that or related platforms -SAR, Offshore support.

Your logic escapes me.

However, if Westland's gets an increased amount of "noble" work i.e. not just assembling kits, from an AW149 purchase, I would be very surprised. Pleasantly surprised.

As for exporting AW149's from the UK, that's a dead duck. Poland got that deal.

My logic -even if it's a ckd operation (and it won't be) it is still localising support and maintenance, which is 70% of lifetime cost. And frankly I'd rather import from Poland than the US at the moment - shorter supply chain and they're a good customer for UK PLC.

[Ron5]

I thought this an interesting line in the government announcement yesterday on procurement shakeup.

“ On exportability, yesterday I published the next stage of our New Medium Helicopter competition – this includes a strong weighting for exports to ensure the high quality rotary work it will support in the UK is sustainable over the long-term.

Such an approach to weighting exportability, where appropriate, will become the default from April 8th.”

Means jack shyt unless the scoring and judgements are made public. Which they won't be.

For example, if this had been the rule from day 1, I'm sure the UK would be the sole source for Ajax exports. Which would have been estimated as billions - to Australia, USA, Hungary, etc etc Any reasoning behind such estimates would be kept far from pubic gaze.

What Ajax exports?

duh

[SD67]

UK Research and Innovation, part of BIS, has a 25 billion GBP budget over the next 3 years.

Surely some of that could be tipped into productionising UN sovereign defence technologies, or at least making up some of the cost deta

[tomuk]

I thought this an interesting line in the government announcement yesterday on procurement shakeup.

“ On exportability, yesterday I published the next stage of our New Medium Helicopter competition – this includes a strong weighting for exports to ensure the high quality rotary work it will support in the UK is sustainable over the long-term.

Such an approach to weighting exportability, where appropriate, will become the default from April 8th.”

Means jack shyt unless the scoring and judgements are made public. Which they won't be.

For example, if this had been the rule from day 1, I'm sure the UK would be the sole source for Ajax exports. Which would have been estimated as billions - to Australia, USA, Hungary, etc etc Any reasoning behind such estimates would be kept far from pubic gaze.

What Ajax exports?

duh

So your saying if MOD had bought and developed a UK sovereign alternative to Ajax instead of building a souped up ASCOD assembled in an old forklift factory from Spanish components we would be able to export said UK Ajax equivalent?

[Ron5]

I thought this an interesting line in the government announcement yesterday on procurement shakeup.

“ On exportability, yesterday I published the next stage of our New Medium Helicopter competition – this includes a strong weighting for exports to ensure the high quality rotary work it will support in the UK is sustainable over the long-term.

Such an approach to weighting exportability, where appropriate, will become the default from April 8th.”

Means jack shyt unless the scoring and judgements are made public. Which they won't be.

For example, if this had been the rule from day 1, I'm sure the UK would be the sole source for Ajax exports. Which would have been estimated as billions - to Australia, USA, Hungary, etc etc Any reasoning behind such estimates would be kept far from pubic gaze.

What Ajax exports?

duh

So your saying if MOD had bought and developed a UK sovereign alternative to Ajax instead of building a souped up ASCOD assembled in an old forklift factory from Spanish components we would be able to export said UK Ajax equivalent?

No, what I am saying (pay attention now) is that if the procurement process had required export potential when Ajax was selected over CV90, it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference because GD UK would have trotted out a convincing tale of how Ajax exports would rule the world.

After all, AJAX was vaporware when selected so its exports could be just as vaporous.

Worst procurement decision ever. Well except for the army brass that got high paying jobs with GD afterwards.

Let's hope NMH doesn't end up as the second worse. Blackhawk is the only contender that's been designed for battle rather than being a civvy painted green. Should be an easy pick.

[mrclark303]

I thought this an interesting line in the government announcement yesterday on procurement shakeup.

“ On exportability, yesterday I published the next stage of our New Medium Helicopter competition – this includes a strong weighting for exports to ensure the high quality rotary work it will support in the UK is sustainable over the long-term.

Such an approach to weighting exportability, where appropriate, will become the default from April 8th.”

Means jack shyt unless the scoring and judgements are made public. Which they won't be.

For example, if this had been the rule from day 1, I'm sure the UK would be the sole source for Ajax exports. Which would have been estimated as billions - to Australia, USA, Hungary, etc etc Any reasoning behind such estimates would be kept far from pubic gaze.

What Ajax exports?

duh

So your saying if MOD had bought and developed a UK sovereign alternative to Ajax instead of building a souped up ASCOD assembled in an old forklift factory from Spanish components we would be able to export said UK Ajax equivalent?

No, what I am saying (pay attention now) is that if the procurement process had required export potential when Ajax was selected over CV90, it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference because GD UK would have trotted out a convincing tale of how Ajax exports would rule the world.

After all, AJAX was vaporware when selected so its exports could be just as vaporous.

Worst procurement decision ever. Well except for the army brass that got high paying jobs with GD afterwards.

Let's hope NMH doesn't end up as the second worse. Blackhawk is the only contender that's been designed for battle rather than being a civvy painted green. Should be an easy pick.

"Let's hope NMH doesn't end up as the second worse. Blackhawk is the only contender that's been designed for battle rather than being a civvy painted green. Should be an easy pick."

Absolutely spot on.........

[Jensy]

Let's hope NMH doesn't end up as the second worse. Blackhawk is the only contender that's been designed for battle rather than being a civvy painted green. Should be an easy pick.

Pity none of the contenders went for a full Union Flag paint scheme... Seems to have worked in the past.

Suspect if Black Hawk was to be excluded, it would have been easy to set an arbitrary troop capacity requirement that it couldn't meet, but the others could. Conversely, if the powers that be wanted it, then the AceHawk offer was pretty compelling and competitive. More than a big shed in Gosport.

Can't help but wonder if it's solely there as a stalking horse. Afterwards can be pointed to as proof of how good AW149 or H-175M is:

"...it even beat Black Hawk, now look at that rotor hub...

Why, yes my beloved Sheikh the bearings inside was carefully fabricated in Somerset (unlike every other part, including the "Made in the UK" labels, which were built in Cascina Costa di Samarate).

How impressive is that?....."

[Ron5]

I thought this an interesting line in the government announcement yesterday on procurement shakeup.

“ On exportability, yesterday I published the next stage of our New Medium Helicopter competition – this includes a strong weighting for exports to ensure the high quality rotary work it will support in the UK is sustainable over the long-term.

Such an approach to weighting exportability, where appropriate, will become the default from April 8th.”

Means jack shyt unless the scoring and judgements are made public. Which they won't be.

For example, if this had been the rule from day 1, I'm sure the UK would be the sole source for Ajax exports. Which would have been estimated as billions - to Australia, USA, Hungary, etc etc Any reasoning behind such estimates would be kept far from pubic gaze.

What Ajax exports?

duh

So your saying if MOD had bought and developed a UK sovereign alternative to Ajax instead of building a souped up ASCOD assembled in an old forklift factory from Spanish components we would be able to export said UK Ajax equivalent?

No, what I am saying (pay attention now) is that if the procurement process had required export potential when Ajax was selected over CV90, it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference because GD UK would have trotted out a convincing tale of how Ajax exports would rule the world.

After all, AJAX was vaporware when selected so its exports could be just as vaporous.

Worst procurement decision ever. Well except for the army brass that got high paying jobs with GD afterwards.

Let's hope NMH doesn't end up as the second worse. Blackhawk is the only contender that's been designed for battle rather than being a civvy painted green. Should be an easy pick.

"Let's hope NMH doesn't end up as the second worse. Blackhawk is the only contender that's been designed for battle rather than being a civvy painted green. Should be an easy pick."

Absolutely spot on.........

You convinced me

[Ron5]

Let's hope NMH doesn't end up as the second worse. Blackhawk is the only contender that's been designed for battle rather than being a civvy painted green. Should be an easy pick.

Pity none of the contenders went for a full Union Flag paint scheme... Seems to have worked in the past.

Suspect if Black Hawk was to be excluded, it would have been easy to set an arbitrary troop capacity requirement that it couldn't meet, but the others could. Conversely, if the powers that be wanted it, then the AceHawk offer was pretty compelling and competitive. More than a big shed in Gosport.

Can't help but wonder if it's solely there as a stalking horse. Afterwards can be pointed to as proof of how good AW149 or H-175M is:

"...it even beat Black Hawk, now look at that rotor hub...

Why, yes my beloved Sheikh the bearings inside was carefully fabricated in Somerset (unlike every other part, including the "Made in the UK" labels, which were built in Cascina Costa di Samarate).

How impressive is that?....."

The Forces are very clearly in favor of BH so no way anyone could leave it off the short list without a riot.

I did read a Chatham Rule comment (sorry can't remember where) by some MoD guy at the presser that said the DSIS wasn't the be all and end all for this competition. Seeing that BH is the weakest in that area, could possibly be a good sign.

[SW1]

If they are falling over themselves for Blackhawk and wish to ignore the supposed industrial strategy cut the program delete the funding.

They might get the message then that industrial resilience matters it’s not a catchy sound bite.

[Ron5]

If they are falling over themselves for Blackhawk and wish to ignore the supposed industrial strategy cut the program delete the funding.

They might get the message then that industrial resilience matters it’s not a catchy sound bite.

yeah, that'll help the squaddies

[SW1]

If they are falling over themselves for Blackhawk and wish to ignore the supposed industrial strategy cut the program delete the funding.

They might get the message then that industrial resilience matters it’s not a catchy sound bite.

yeah, that'll help the squaddies

Does in France and Italy

[Poiuytrewq]

….ignore the supposed industrial strategy…..

Regardless of the design that is eventually chosen, how can you have a coherent industrial strategy with so few units?

If HMG was really serious about an industrial strategy they would transfer all Wildcat AH1 to RN and increase the NMH order to around 75.

The RAF has been slashed so much now that economies of scale simply don’t exist anymore and until airframe numbers start to rise again unit, maintenance and upgrade costs are going to continue to be eye-wateringly expensive.

[SW1]

….ignore the supposed industrial strategy…..

Regardless of the design that is eventually chosen, how can you have a coherent industrial strategy with so few units?

If HMG was really serious about an industrial strategy they would transfer all Wildcat AH1 to RN and increase the NMH order to around 75.

The RAF has been slashed so much now that economies of scale simply don’t exist anymore and until airframe numbers start to rise again unit, maintenance and upgrade costs are going to continue to be eye-wateringly expensive.

Your industrial strategy is to retain the design integration, manufacture test skills in rotorcraft industry.

As to your wider point it should be seen as batch 1 buy, when Merlin is replaced we order batch 2 variant, when the coast guard need new helicopter department of transport buy a variant ect ect ect. That would the idea of an industrial strategy you need to start the process somewhere, there is always excuses and special pleading not to.


We operate over 200 helicopter below chinook, it’s the fact we do penny pack right left and centre we get less value. Aerospace is an expensive business but you get better outcomes if you keep the design integration and test in country .

[Poiuytrewq]

Your industrial strategy is to retain the design integration, manufacture test skills in rotorcraft industry…..Aerospace is an expensive business but you get better outcomes if you keep the design integration and test in country .

It’s highly unlikely the NMH contract will be awarded before the GE so there is still time to crystallise a longer term strategy before SDSR2025.

• Maximising Chinook numbers makes sense provided the costs remain sensible.

• Transferring all Wildcat across to RN makes sense as the Army never wanted them and RN will need them if the surface fleet is to grow.

• The Merlin’s are going to give great service to RN so no need for any changes there.

• The Puma (and Wildcat) replacements are the only area that needs a rethink. It’s not clear that any of the options on the table are suitable for a universal airframe to form the foundation of a multi tranche procurement strategy going forward.

Therefore without a viable alternative, is groping around for a long term industrial strategy based upon an airframe that doesn’t currently exist just more unnecessary procrastination?