The future form of the Army

[Repulse]

When you look at the force structure it still feels muddled. To move beyond years of disarray, constant restructuring and poor investment choices I think the Army needs a clear structure that is aligned closer to outcomes.

A lot of the parts are already there and it’s about investing in the gaps - but one example force structure could be:

- Airborne Division: The global “get there first” force
- Mechanised Division: The heavy war fighting force - focused on NATO, but able to deployed further afield with notice.
- Forward Brigade: Globally deployed units including BOT Regiments focused on security (and “grey war”) and conflict prevention.
- Reserve Division: UK based reserve forces with seedcorn capabilities to generate larger forces in time of conflict.

[Tempest414]

To be clear the LRRB would not deploy as a Brigade but as battalions. This what I said a few days ago

"As said the way I see the LRRB's battalions working is to have

1 x HQ & support company
3 x LRR copmpanies

with each LRR company having 2 x forward Recce Platoons , 1 x Rear support Platoon

I also see them when deployed having the HQ company and two Recce companies on the ground and one on leave this would mean that the HQ & Support company would need to be a bit bigger to allow leave rotations"

the role of the Brigade would be to rotate the battalions through Cyprus and other ares of interest in support of UN Op's these battalion could also support Ranger or SF units where needed

[sol]

Africa is fast turning into the new grey zone

Africa was always a grey zone but anyway ... I am not sure what would be a point of such brigade except saying it is for Africa without any additional explanation of concept. British forces in Mali, operated under certain circumstances (partly it was under UN mandate, in support of larger French contingent and official government of Mali), in desert area with need to travel long distance over (relatively) flat, bared and uninhabited area. So it is orginised in the way that is suitable for those conditions, it does not mean that such orgaisation would work in other parts of the Africa, like its Sub-Saharan/Southern part, or the World. And UK, with its limited resources, could not afford to have such specialist force. Not even the US, with vastly larger resources, is having or planning to have such force.

Also I am not sure what is with this fixation on "fancy" titles like LRRB or Rapid/Global Reaction forces. UK already have such unit in 1st UK division which 2 LBCTs should (on paper) be used for such roles. After all, all rotations in Mali came from 7th BCT, so I don't see what would be an issue, if needed, for it or 4th BCT to provide it again. Equipped with whatever MRV-P should provide, it should be easily deployable by air, sea or any other way of transport, in shortest period of time. Issue is that, as I said, real situation is far from what should be, as currently 4th BCT looks more like the dumping ground for all pure infantry units and heavily depended for its support on reservs/TA. If both brigades are properly structured and equipped, they should cover roles of radid reaction/deployable units anywhere in the World. But, while with time equipment issue could be solved once MRV-P and some other projects are finished, structure problem, especially with 4th BCT, could be more problematic to whole concept. It is pointless to speak of any additional capability if UK is not capable to provide 4th BCT with regular support units as artillery, engineer or logistic elements.

[SW1]

This again goes to the heart of the government strategy and its engagement with allies. What was the outcome of the LRRG in Mali? where was the joined up plan for which the military was a part, it was more a look we’re doing something which benefits no one. So while from a military concept of operations it was an interesting and beneficial deployment did it add anything to the government’s long term strategic goal.

Hence my repeated point of very specific priorities of government and explicitly targeted extremely long term engagement with economic, trade and infrastructure supported by security engagement not just we must be everywhere approach. imo I would mainly look to uk oversea territory’s and our very long term allied countries who want us to help.


If we look at future soldier which we are supposedly still following there is 4 brigades in the army that can in theory deploy the 12 and 20 armoured brigades, 7 light brigade and 16 air assault. The rest are simply an administrative collection of supporting, enabling assets as these are insufficient in number to create actual deployable brigade combat teams with the 4 aforementioned brigades and so they become double hatted in administrative support constructs that create new HQs.

The others are something to collect infantry battalions into who couldn’t deploy in any meaningful time frames.

I’ve suggested before how I would reconfigure those 4 brigades so won’t repeat we have the fwd deployed infantry units in Cyprus, Brunei and the falkands I would look and reconfiguring those into something like a form of full battlegroup to better protect those locations while being able to engage with allies in those regions

[Tempest414]

This again goes to the heart of the government strategy and its engagement with allies. What was the outcome of the LRRG in Mali? where was the joined up plan for which the military was a part, it was more a look we’re doing something which benefits no one. So while from a military concept of operations it was an interesting and beneficial deployment did it add anything to the government’s long term strategic goal.

Hence my repeated point of very specific priorities of government and explicitly targeted extremely long term engagement with economic, trade and infrastructure supported by security engagement not just we must be everywhere approach. imo I would mainly look to uk oversea territory’s and our very long term allied countries who want us to help.


If we look at future soldier which we are supposedly still following there is 4 brigades in the army that can in theory deploy the 12 and 20 armoured brigades, 7 light brigade and 16 air assault. The rest are simply an administrative collection of supporting, enabling assets as these are insufficient in number to create actual deployable brigade combat teams with the 4 aforementioned brigades and so they become double hatted in administrative support constructs that create new HQs.

The others are something to collect infantry battalions into who couldn’t deploy in any meaningful time frames.

I’ve suggested before how I would reconfigure those 4 brigades so won’t repeat we have the fwd deployed infantry units in Cyprus, Brunei and the falkands I would look and reconfiguring those into something like a form of full battlegroup to better protect those locations while being able to engage with allies in those regions

For me having 4 Brigades in both the 1st and 3rd divisions is the way to go something like so

1st division = Global Response
4th light BCT
11th SFA brigade
16 AA BCT
51st light mech BCT
with the 4th , 16AA & 51st all having 1x Artillery , 1 x Logistics , 1 x Engineer with the 51st also having a REME regt

3rd division = NATO Europe
DRF BCT
7th Mech BCT
12th Armoured BCT
20th Mech BCT
Again with 7th , 12th & 20th all having 1x Artillery , 1 x Logistics , 1 x Engineer , 1 x REME

Plus both divisions having a division support brigade made up of

1 x Logistics plus 3 x Reserve logistics regts
2 x Engineer plus 2 x Reserve engineer regts


this would allow both divisions to have

4 x Logistics regts + 3 x Reserve logistics regts & 6 x Engineer + 2 Reserve engineer regts also the 4th , 7th , 20th & 51st would all have Artillery with the 12th supported by the DRF

As said before the HQ-ARRC would stay as is this could mean if the 3rd was to deploy under HQ-ARRC this UK force would be supported by 9 Logistics regts + 7 Reserve logistics regts

[SW1]

This again goes to the heart of the government strategy and its engagement with allies. What was the outcome of the LRRG in Mali? where was the joined up plan for which the military was a part, it was more a look we’re doing something which benefits no one. So while from a military concept of operations it was an interesting and beneficial deployment did it add anything to the government’s long term strategic goal.

Hence my repeated point of very specific priorities of government and explicitly targeted extremely long term engagement with economic, trade and infrastructure supported by security engagement not just we must be everywhere approach. imo I would mainly look to uk oversea territory’s and our very long term allied countries who want us to help.


If we look at future soldier which we are supposedly still following there is 4 brigades in the army that can in theory deploy the 12 and 20 armoured brigades, 7 light brigade and 16 air assault. The rest are simply an administrative collection of supporting, enabling assets as these are insufficient in number to create actual deployable brigade combat teams with the 4 aforementioned brigades and so they become double hatted in administrative support constructs that create new HQs.

The others are something to collect infantry battalions into who couldn’t deploy in any meaningful time frames.

I’ve suggested before how I would reconfigure those 4 brigades so won’t repeat we have the fwd deployed infantry units in Cyprus, Brunei and the falkands I would look and reconfiguring those into something like a form of full battlegroup to better protect those locations while being able to engage with allies in those regions

For me having 4 Brigades in both the 1st and 3rd divisions is the way to go something like so

1st division = Global Response
4th light BCT
11th SFA brigade
16 AA BCT
51st light mech BCT
with the 4th , 16AA & 51st all having 1x Artillery , 1 x Logistics , 1 x Engineer with the 51st also having a REME regt

3rd division = NATO Europe
DRF BCT
7th Mech BCT
12th Armoured BCT
20th Mech BCT
Again with 7th , 12th & 20th all having 1x Artillery , 1 x Logistics , 1 x Engineer , 1 x REME

Plus both divisions having a division support brigade made up of

1 x Logistics plus 3 x Reserve logistics regts
2 x Engineer plus 2 x Reserve engineer regts


this would allow both divisions to have

4 x Logistics regts + 3 x Reserve logistics regts & 6 x Engineer + 2 Reserve engineer regts also the 4th , 7th , 20th & 51st would all have Artillery with the 12th supported by the DRF

As said before the HQ-ARRC would stay as is this could mean if the 3rd was to deploy under HQ-ARRC this UK force would be supported by 9 Logistics regts + 7 Reserve logistics regts

I don’t see there being the manpower or budget for anywhere close to that, given current circumstances it would be either your 1st or 3rd but not both if they were in that configuration.

[Tempest414]

This again goes to the heart of the government strategy and its engagement with allies. What was the outcome of the LRRG in Mali? where was the joined up plan for which the military was a part, it was more a look we’re doing something which benefits no one. So while from a military concept of operations it was an interesting and beneficial deployment did it add anything to the government’s long term strategic goal.

Hence my repeated point of very specific priorities of government and explicitly targeted extremely long term engagement with economic, trade and infrastructure supported by security engagement not just we must be everywhere approach. imo I would mainly look to uk oversea territory’s and our very long term allied countries who want us to help.


If we look at future soldier which we are supposedly still following there is 4 brigades in the army that can in theory deploy the 12 and 20 armoured brigades, 7 light brigade and 16 air assault. The rest are simply an administrative collection of supporting, enabling assets as these are insufficient in number to create actual deployable brigade combat teams with the 4 aforementioned brigades and so they become double hatted in administrative support constructs that create new HQs.

The others are something to collect infantry battalions into who couldn’t deploy in any meaningful time frames.

I’ve suggested before how I would reconfigure those 4 brigades so won’t repeat we have the fwd deployed infantry units in Cyprus, Brunei and the falkands I would look and reconfiguring those into something like a form of full battlegroup to better protect those locations while being able to engage with allies in those regions

For me having 4 Brigades in both the 1st and 3rd divisions is the way to go something like so

1st division = Global Response
4th light BCT
11th SFA brigade
16 AA BCT
51st light mech BCT
with the 4th , 16AA & 51st all having 1x Artillery , 1 x Logistics , 1 x Engineer with the 51st also having a REME regt

3rd division = NATO Europe
DRF BCT
7th Mech BCT
12th Armoured BCT
20th Mech BCT
Again with 7th , 12th & 20th all having 1x Artillery , 1 x Logistics , 1 x Engineer , 1 x REME

Plus both divisions having a division support brigade made up of

1 x Logistics plus 3 x Reserve logistics regts
2 x Engineer plus 2 x Reserve engineer regts


this would allow both divisions to have

4 x Logistics regts + 3 x Reserve logistics regts & 6 x Engineer + 2 Reserve engineer regts also the 4th , 7th , 20th & 51st would all have Artillery with the 12th supported by the DRF

As said before the HQ-ARRC would stay as is this could mean if the 3rd was to deploy under HQ-ARRC this UK force would be supported by 9 Logistics regts + 7 Reserve logistics regts

I don’t see there being the manpower or budget for anywhere close to that, given current circumstances it would be either your 1st or 3rd but not both if they were in that configuration.

All the units are in FS and have been moved about to make the new Divisions even if not all the units within the division are fully up to deployment they will be of use to the division

[sol]

with the 4th , 16AA & 51st all having 1x Artillery , 1 x Logistics , 1 x Engineer with the 51st also having a REME regt

4th is getting its "1x Artillery, 1 x Logistics, 1 x Engineer" regiments from reserve, from where would those for 51st came from?

[Tempest414]

with the 4th , 16AA & 51st all having 1x Artillery , 1 x Logistics , 1 x Engineer with the 51st also having a REME regt

4th is getting its "1x Artillery, 1 x Logistics, 1 x Engineer" regiments from reserve, from where would those for 51st came from?

As said I would reduce the DRF too just 2 x Cavalry and the 2 x M270a2 unit this would free up the 2 x SP gun unit so as said

12th Armoured would be supported by the DRF
7th & 20th mech brigades with SP gun units
4th brigade would get the 4th RA
16AA already has artillery

The 51st I see as light / light mech brigade with its role to provide units to Cyprus , Brunei , Africa and the likes with it battalions using 120mm towed or SP mortars and loiter weapons and maybe Exactor 2

there are 12 full time Logistics and 14 Engineer units in FS providing 1 of each to the 6 brigades would leave 6 logistics and 8 engineer units with 4 logistic units going to the 104th TSB under the HQ-ARRC this allow 1 to go to the 1st brigade meaning the 1st would have 4 logistics unit and 1 to the 3rd meaning it would have 4 Logs units with the engineer unit being split 4 to the 1st and 4 to the 3rd meaning both would have 7 engineer units

[sol]

12th Armoured would be supported by the DRF

So armoured brigade would not have artillery support? I mean MLRS is not a replacement for gun exactly, and it could never replace 155mm regiment.

... Exactor 2

I would not counting on its staying in the service.

there are 12 full time Logistics and 14 Engineer units in FS ....

Did you ever bother to check their organisation/specialization? Because they are not all the same and some have different role. Listing full number without breaking it by their purpose is misleading and would not reflect real situation.

[Tempest414]

12th Armoured would be supported by the DRF

So armoured brigade would not have artillery support? I mean MLRS is not a replacement for gun exactly, and it could never replace 155mm regiment.

... Exactor 2

I would not counting on its staying in the service.

there are 12 full time Logistics and 14 Engineer units in FS ....

Yes I have
Did you ever bother to check their organisation/specialization? Because they are not all the same and some have different role. Listing full number without breaking it by their purpose is misleading and would not reflect real situation.

Well as said something has to give and both the Armoured Brigades as it stands don't have organic Artillery and at a push it could have a Reserve 155m regt

Yes Exactor could go out of service but could or would be replaced by Brimstone

Yes I have bothered to read what and who and the split stands up well maybe you should look and read

[sol]

Well as said something has to give and both the Armoured Brigades as it stands don't have organic Artillery and at a push it could have a Reserve 155m regt

Well of course they do not, as FS is placing both 155mm regiments into DRS. And it is one of the puzzling think that no one so far properly explained why it is done like that. It is also obvious that DRS itself does not have a single logistic regiment of its own which is another think that is bothering lot of people. How is DRS supposed to work in practice is completely unknown to me.

Still considering that by FS there are just two ABCT, those two regiments could be allocated to them. But if you want to add another brigade to orbat you have an issue, as there is no available regular artillery regiments available. Or even reserve one. So adding brigade HQ would require adding another artillery regiment if you want it to be fully supported. There is no way around it.

Yes I have bothered to read what and who and the split stands up well maybe you should look and read

I had, thank you. And, as I can find, there is a 13 logistic regiments, including 1 training (so technically just 12). Also some sorces suggest that 3rd Regiment RLC will be disbanded, if true that would leave only 11 regiments. 4th LBCT even has reserve logistic regiment attached as there is no available regular one. So I don't know how you mean to provide a logistic regiment to additional brigade.

[Tempest414]

Well as said something has to give and both the Armoured Brigades as it stands don't have organic Artillery and at a push it could have a Reserve 155m regt

Well of course they do not, as FS is placing both 155mm regiments into DRS. And it is one of the puzzling think that no one so far properly explained why it is done like that. It is also obvious that DRS itself does not have a single logistic regiment of its own which is another think that is bothering lot of people. How is DRS supposed to work in practice is completely unknown to me.

Still considering that by FS there are just two ABCT, those two regiments could be allocated to them. But if you want to add another brigade to orbat you have an issue, as there is no available regular artillery regiments available. Or even reserve one. So adding brigade HQ would require adding another artillery regiment if you want it to be fully supported. There is no way around it.

Yes I have bothered to read what and who and the split stands up well maybe you should look and read

I had, thank you. And, as I can find, there is a 13 logistic regiments, including 1 training (so technically just 12). Also some sorces suggest that 3rd Regiment RLC will be disbanded, if true that would leave only 11 regiments. 4th LBCT even has reserve logistic regiment attached as there is no available regular one. So I don't know how you mean to provide a logistic regiment to additional brigade.

As said FS is just to messy and needs rethinking and that is why I would ditch DRF and go back to mixed 155mm & MRLS regts with 3 x Armoured regts and 3 x light add to this we need to rethinking the reserve artillery units to provide 1 mix armoured unit and 1 x mix light unit with say the now 4 armoured units having K9A3 and M270A2 and the 4 light unit having a new light gun and HIMARS

As far as Logistics goes to cover the 4th brigade I would move the 7th RLC out of the 102nd OSB and into the 4th and then move the QOGLR out of the 101st into the 102nd this would leave both OSB's with 1 x Divisional logistics support Regt , 1 x REME regt and 3 x reserve logistics regts

This would mean that the 4th , 7th, 12th , 16AA , 20th would all have organic Artillery and Logistics regts and could also mean that a new Brigade could have a organic artillery unit so when taking into account full time and reserve units each division could end up with 1 x Divisional logistics regt , 3 x brigade logistics regts and 3 x Reserve logistics regts plus 3 artillery regts and 1 reserve artillery regt

[Repulse]

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2023/08/ ... t-wargame/

[Gtal]

250 person wagame.. Meanwhile the French recently held an exercise with apparently 10000 active personnel taking part.

[Caribbean]

I'm pretty sure we've conducted exercises with more than 250 troops in the past.

They specifically say "force development wargame". From the text, it looks like this is scaling up new ideas from initial small unit trials to a larger team

[Poiuytrewq]

new ideas….

Seems to be lots of these new ideas recently to do a lot more with a lot less.

It appears the MoD is stuck in a theorising doom loop hence the incoherent waffle and total lack of meaningful content in the DCPR.

[Ian Hall]

I'm pretty sure we've conducted exercises with more than 250 troops in the past.

They specifically say "force development wargame". From the text, it looks like this is scaling up new ideas from initial small unit trials to a larger team

Confusing 'war game' with (field) 'exercise'.

[Tempest414]

moved over form the Jackal thread

the Army right now can't move to 3 fighting Divisions due to the lack of Logistics and Artillery units right now the best it can manage is 6 brigades plus 2 reserve brigades with something like so

3rd Division ( Based around Boxer , Ajax , CH3 , M270 , K9A3 )
1 x Armoured brigade with
1 x Cavalry regt , 2 x Armoured regts , 2 x Infantry battalions , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics

2 x Mechanised brigades with
1 x Cavalry regt , 3 x Infantry battalions , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics

1 x Reserve Armoured brigade with
1 x Cavalry regt , 1 x Armoured regt , 4 x Infantry battalions , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics

1st Division ( Based around LRV 400/600 and HMT 400/600 New light gun )
1 x Air Assault brigade ( Rapid Response ) with
1 x Cavalry regt , 3 x Infantry battalions , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics

2 x Light Mechanised brigades
1 x Cavalry regt , 3 x Infantry battalions , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics

1 x Reserve Light Mechanised brigade with
1 x Cavalry regt , 4 x Infantry battalions , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics

This leaves 1 Cavalry and 3 Infantry units which could be made into 10 Air Response Units each with about 220 troops and placed into the 6th Division along side the 4 Ranger units and 4 Security Force Assistance units all of these units would based round LRV 400 and HMT 400/600

[Tempest414]

To follow on how do I see the Air response units laid out maybe something like this

1 x HQ & QM Platoon = LRV 400 & HMT 600
2 x Recce sections = LRV 400
2 x forward fire Platoons = HMT 400
1 x Fire support Platoon = HMT 600

As these Units will need to stay light so weapons would be 12.7mm HMG , 40mm GMG vehicle mounted Javelin , SP 120mm Mortar and SP Brimstone plus Loitor weapons

[Poiuytrewq]

…the Army right now can't move to 3 fighting Divisions due to the lack of Logistics and Artillery units right now the best it can manage is 6 brigades plus 2 reserve brigades…

Perhaps but as the Defence budget increases to 2.5% the Army must be able to scale up without another massive reorganisation. Reorganisation is always expensive, save this cost with proper prior planning to prevent you know what.

Therefore why not keep the Rapid Reaction Force separate from 1st and 3rd Div comprising an all PARA 16AAB plus 3 Cdo Brigade with two Gurkha battalions and the Rangers in reserve. Equip existing supporting artillery and logistics elements with air mobile platforms and provide additional support from 1st and 3rd Division as required. It’s not a full Div but it can easily be expanded if the funds appear and the security picture continues to worsen.

Similar but not identical to the old JOINT RAPID REACTION FORCE (JRRF).

With a 70k+ Army with a 30k reserve this should be very possible. Maintain the ambition to increase to a combined 120k with 3 deployable Divisions if the funding appears or 2 Div plus an independent JRRF if it does not.

[Tempest414]

If you really need a third Division them one way might be to keep the 3rd as I laid out

3rd Division ( Based around Boxer , Ajax , CH3 , M270 , K9A3 )
1 x Armoured brigade with
1 x Cavalry regt , 2 x Armoured regts , 2 x Infantry battalions , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics

2 x Mechanised brigades with
1 x Cavalry regt , 3 x Infantry battalions , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics

1 x Reserve Armoured brigade with
1 x Cavalry regt , 1 x Armoured regt , 4 x Infantry battalions , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics

Then make the 1st look like this

1st Division ( Based around LRV 400/600 and HMT 400/600 New light gun )

2 x Light Mechanised brigades
1 x Cavalry regt , 3 x Infantry battalions , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics

1 x Reserve Light Mechanised brigade with
1 x Cavalry regt , 4 x Infantry battalions , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics

And then make a newly formed 2nd Division look like

1 x Air Assault brigade ( Rapid Response ) with
1 x Cavalry regt , 3 x Infantry battalions , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics

10 x Air Response Unit

Rangers

then if money comes down the line look to recruit 4000 extra Gurkha's and form another Brigade with 3 x infantry 1 x Artillery 1 x Logistics and fit them into the 1st division

[Poiuytrewq]

Much depends on the new NATO battle plan and if the Army (3rd Div) is going to tilt to the JEF region whilst the rapid response force (16AAB & 3 Cdo) plus Rangers concentrates on the rest of the world.

Will NATO now form an additional 2 or 3 Battlegroups in Norway/Sweden/Finland?

How will 3 Cdo be impacted by the rapid reaction force reorganisation?

It’s all as clear as mud.

[Tempest414]

Much depends on the new NATO battle plan and if the Army (3rd Div) is going to tilt to the JEF region whilst the rapid response force (16AAB & 3 Cdo) plus Rangers concentrates on the rest of the world.

Will NATO now form an additional 2 or 3 Battlegroups in Norway/Sweden/Finland?

How will 3 Cdo be impacted by the rapid reaction force reorganisation?

It’s all as clear as mud.

We should not be waiting for this or that what we should be doing is forming the 3rd into the UK's NATO division and the 1st into the Global commitment division this would mean we are committing 3 brigades plus the ARRC to NATO and holding 3 brigades plus 10 ARU's at readiness for global commitments

the ability for the UK to have the Army with 10 ARU's the RM with 8 LSU's and the RAF Regt to have 3 Sqn's with 2 +2 +1 ready to deploy at 24h's notice backed up by the 16AA battle group or a light mech battle group within 48h's would be a great plus

For this to happen the ready groups need to be held at airfields with vehicles and kit rigged for Air transport and we would need 1 x C17 and 3 A400's tasked with 10hs . The RM LSU's would be predeloyed as part of the LRG's

[Repulse]

Whilst restructures are painful and expensive, I think it’s inevitable given the lack of direction the Army has suffered since COIN was seen as the dud it always was.

I would say aligning structures to primary objectives allows them the structure to make meaningful decisions on.

e.g:
- NATO/JEF
- Global rapid deployment
- Home / reserve (inc seed corn capabilities for expanding the Army in wartime).
- Forward presence

The first three are Divisions, and the last should consist of the BoT Battalions, Rangers and RMs.