The future form of the Army

[SW1]

... we are buying more MLRS, because they are available cheap and secondhand, instead of new HIMARS, smaller and air deployable.

Considering air deployability, there is no advantage going for HIMARS instead M270 for UK, especially with retirement of C-130.

Yes there is several. Aircraft range payload, the ability to deploy the vehicle and support together on the same a/c, Vehicle preparation prior to loading.

[sol]

Vehicle preparation prior to loading.

So what is a time of vehicle preparation of HIMARS compared to M270? How significantly better it is?

[mrclark303]

... we are buying more MLRS, because they are available cheap and secondhand, instead of new HIMARS, smaller and air deployable.

Considering air deployability, there is no advantage going for HIMARS instead M270 for UK, especially with retirement of C-130.

I'm not following you there Sol, M270 isn't deployable by air, HIMARS is far more flexible....

[sol]

I'm not following you there Sol, M270 isn't deployable by air, HIMARS is far more flexible....

How M270 is not deployable by air? So you can’t transport it using A400 or C17?

[mr.fred]

I'm not following you there Sol, M270 isn't deployable by air, HIMARS is far more flexible....

http://img.bemil.chosun.com/site/data/i ... 1528_2.jpg
I'm guessing they've repurposed this M270 as an airport tug?

[Tempest414]

HIMARS was developed to be airlifted by C-130 for the USMC who only operate C-130 we no longer have C-130 and our A400's are capable of moving M27A2's in the same way as C-130 moves HIMARS

[Tempest414]

I have been thinking about the Gurkha's as said at this time we have 4000 and with what has been said about recruitment and retention and if we could would growing the Gurkha's to 10,000 be a good move with 10,000 we could have

1 x Light recce strike battalion
3 x Infantry battalions
2 x Artillery regts
2 x Logistics regts
2 x Signals regts
2 x Engineer regts

We could then form the Gurkha Rapid Reaction Brigade within the 1st division with

1 x light recce strike battalion
3 x infantry battalions
1 x Artillery regt
1 x Logistics regt
1 x Engineer regt
1 x Signals regt

this would leave 1 regt each of Logistics , Artillery , Engineer and Signals to help form a second brigade within the 1st division and still leave some 1500+ Gurkha's for other tasks

[Repulse]

Without getting into the detail, as I think the future army form has to be able to be communicated in a few sentences, below is what I think the Army should be scaling to deliver within one month and sustain at any point in time.

- Ability to deploy globally a combined (UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) Division - with the UK contributing the Div HQ, 2 Heavy / Medium brigades and supporting artillery etc.

OR

- Ability to deploy two fully self contained Heavy/Medium Brigades to the JEF region

PLUS

- Forward based highly mobile light regional response groups engaged in every continent from UK BoTs / Bases ranging from SFs up to a Battlegroup scaled engagement

[Tempest414]

Without getting into the detail, as I think the future army form has to be able to be communicated in a few sentences, below is what I think the Army should be scaling to deliver within one month and sustain at any point in time.

- Ability to deploy globally a combined (UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) Division - with the UK contributing the Div HQ, 2 Heavy / Medium brigades and supporting artillery etc.

OR

- Ability to deploy two fully self contained Heavy/Medium Brigades to the JEF region

PLUS

- Forward based highly mobile light regional response groups engaged in every continent from UK BoTs / Bases ranging from SFs up to a Battlegroup scaled engagement

For me the UK should be pushing the CANZUK defence packed in the Indo-Pacific and yes we should be looking at being able to stand up a Division but it should be lead by Australia with its high readiness armoured formation backed up by a Canadian Mechanised brigade the UK would bring 2 battalion Battle groups one RM and one Gurkha. NZ would also bring a re-enforced Battalion battle group

I have also said in the past that we should pushing a CANZUK naval battle group to

[Repulse]

For me the UK should be pushing the CANZUK defence packed in the Indo-Pacific and yes we should be looking at being able to stand up a Division but it should be lead by Australia

Why just Indo-Pacific? Why not as the cornerstone of the UKs land scale land ambition outside of Europe? Tbh - I have no view on who leads it, just need the capability to do it.

[Tempest414]

For me the UK should be pushing the CANZUK defence packed in the Indo-Pacific and yes we should be looking at being able to stand up a Division but it should be lead by Australia

Why just Indo-Pacific? Why not as the cornerstone of the UKs land scale land ambition outside of Europe? Tbh - I have no view on who leads it, just need the capability to do it.

The only reason I say the Indo-Pacific is this would be the main area outside of Europe bar say South America which would be a US lead show

I also say let someone else lead due to the fact we really have one Divisional HQ which is needed for the JEF

[Repulse]

The only reason I say the Indo-Pacific is this would be the main area outside of Europe bar say South America which would be a US lead show

I also say let someone else lead due to the fact we really have one Divisional HQ which is needed for the JEF

Where would you put the Middle East and Africa?

I thought the UK has the ability to generate more than one Divisional HQ?

[Tempest414]

The only reason I say the Indo-Pacific is this would be the main area outside of Europe bar say South America which would be a US lead show

I also say let someone else lead due to the fact we really have one Divisional HQ which is needed for the JEF

Where would you put the Middle East and Africa?

I thought the UK has the ability to generate more than one Divisional HQ?

I would put East Africa in the Indian Ocean and West Africa in the Atlantic the Middle East is at the top of the Indian Ocean

So both the Middle East and East Africa fall EoS and North and West Africa fall in the Euro/ Atlantic

[Repulse]

I would put East Africa in the Indian Ocean and West Africa in the Atlantic the Middle East is at the top of the Indian Ocean

So both the Middle East and East Africa fall EoS and North and West Africa fall in the Euro/ Atlantic

IMO, no need to make a distinction between East and West Africa. Having a single integrated and scalable force for significant operations outside of Europe with allies we’re close and in step with makes sense IMO. You could say Falklands and that could be the exception, but let’s focus on defence first and then ensure flexibility.

[Tempest414]

Moved over here

When we look at Future Soldier I think there are holes all over it which now can start to be filled in so starting with the 1st division

I think we should move the 7th Mechanised brigade out of the 1st and into the 3rd division and then move 16AA into the 1st next we should form the 4th brigade into a second rapid reaction brigade and at the same time remove 3 of it infantry battalion leaving it with 1 cavalry & 3 Infantry units plus a Artillery and logistic regt next up form the remaining 3 infantry unit plus 1 from the 7th brigade into the 51st Long Range Recce Brigade. Last of all keep the 11th SFA brigade in the 1st with the new look division looking like

4th Rapid reaction brigade
16th Air Assault rapid reaction brigade
11th Security force Assistance brigade
51st Long Range Recce brigade

We then move onto the 3rd division we move the 7th brigade into the division and one of it infantry battalions over to 12th brigade next we move the Tank regt out of the 20th and into the 12th this will mean the 12th becomes the only Armoured brigade within the 3rd with 1 x Cavalry , 2 x tank regts , 3 x Infantry , 1 x Artillery regt , 1 x Logistics regt. Both the 7th and 20th brigades would become Mechanised brigades with 1 x cavalry , 3 x infantry , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics last but not least the DRF brigade would lose both of the SP gun regts one to the armoured brigade and one to one of the mech brigades this would leave the DRF brigade with 2 x cavalry & 2 x M270a2 units to this we could add a Reserve M270a2 regt and the 3rd looking like

Deep Recce Fires brigade
7th Mechanised brigade
12th Armoured brigade
20th Mechanised brigade

This to me this looks like a much better balanced force

[SW1]

Moved over here

When we look at Future Soldier I think there are holes all over it which now can start to be filled in so starting with the 1st division

I think we should move the 7th Mechanised brigade out of the 1st and into the 3rd division and then move 16AA into the 1st next we should form the 4th brigade into a second rapid reaction brigade and at the same time remove 3 of it infantry battalion leaving it with 1 cavalry & 3 Infantry units plus a Artillery and logistic regt next up form the remaining 3 infantry unit plus 1 from the 7th brigade into the 51st Long Range Recce Brigade. Last of all keep the 11th SFA brigade in the 1st with the new look division looking like

4th Rapid reaction brigade
16th Air Assault rapid reaction brigade
11th Security force Assistance brigade
51st Long Range Recce brigade

We then move onto the 3rd division we move the 7th brigade into the division and one of it infantry battalions over to 12th brigade next we move the Tank regt out of the 20th and into the 12th this will mean the 12th becomes the only Armoured brigade within the 3rd with 1 x Cavalry , 2 x tank regts , 3 x Infantry , 1 x Artillery regt , 1 x Logistics regt. Both the 7th and 20th brigades would become Mechanised brigades with 1 x cavalry , 3 x infantry , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics last but not least the DRF brigade would lose both of the SP gun regts one to the armoured brigade and one to one of the mech brigades this would leave the DRF brigade with 2 x cavalry & 2 x M270a2 units to this we could add a Reserve M270a2 regt and the 3rd looking like

Deep Recce Fires brigade
7th Mechanised brigade
12th Armoured brigade
20th Mechanised brigade

This to me this looks like a much better balanced force

Single biggest problem with the force structure in future soldier is a complete dearth of the enablers logs , engineering ect ect.

Good place to start would be removing 10 infantry battalions and re allocating the headcount room from that to those enabling functions.

[Tempest414]

So at this time within FS we would have

20 full time and 12 reserve infantry units
14 full time and 6 Royal Engineer units
12 FT + 11 R Logistics units
8 FT + 3 REME units

So under my lay out above the 4th , 7th , 16th & 20th brigade would each get 1 x Artillery , Logistics , Engineer and REME regts the Armoured brigade would get 1 x Logistics , Engineer and REME regts plus would be covered by the DRF. The LRRB would get 1 x Logistics , REME , Engineer and Signals regts next each Division would get 1 full time and 3 x reserve Logistics regts plus Engineer and Medical brigades made up of full time and reserve units

So each division would end up with 4 x Logistics regts , 5 x Engineer regts full time plus 3 x logistics & 3 x engineer regts reserve

The ARRC would remain as is

[sol]

... next we should form the 4th brigade into a second rapid reaction brigade and at the same time remove 3 of it infantry battalion leaving it with 1 cavalry & 3 Infantry units plus a Artillery and logistic regt next up form the remaining 3 infantry unit plus 1 from the 7th brigade into the 51st Long Range Recce Brigade.

ORBAT of both 4th and 7th Brigades is somewhat misleading. Both brigades have one battalion on long term rotation on Cyprus, plus 2nd RGR in Brunei is also listed under 4th. So actually there are not 2 bns from 4th and 1 from 7th that could be used for the new brigade.

[Tempest414]

... next we should form the 4th brigade into a second rapid reaction brigade and at the same time remove 3 of it infantry battalion leaving it with 1 cavalry & 3 Infantry units plus a Artillery and logistic regt next up form the remaining 3 infantry unit plus 1 from the 7th brigade into the 51st Long Range Recce Brigade.

ORBAT of both 4th and 7th Brigades is somewhat misleading. Both brigades have one battalion on long term rotation on Cyprus, plus 2nd RGR in Brunei is also listed under 4th. So actually there are not 2 bns from 4th and 1 from 7th that could be used for the new brigade.

This can be over come as I left out a cavalry unit by mistake plus didn't move 1st Royal Irish out of 16AA when I moved in a cavalry regt so 2-RGR could stay in Brunei and remain part of the 4th RRB this would leave us with 5 units in the new Long Range Recce Brigade with 1 always rotating through Cyprus 2 others deployed and 2 at rest / training

[Tempest414]

As said the way I see the LRRB's battalions working is to have

1 x HQ & support company
3 x LRR copmpanies

with each LRR company having 2 x forward Recce Platoons , 1 x Rear support Platoon

I also see them when deployed having the HQ company and two Recce companies on the ground and one on leave this would mean that the HQ & Support company would need to be a bit bigger to allow leave rotations

[SW1]

British light cavalry making a comeback?

[Tempest414]

British light cavalry making a comeback?

Stunning shots great bit of training and something different for the troops

[Tempest414]

By Defence Secretary on the Global Response Force

An important lesson from Ukraine is to make sure it is digitally glued together, and to make sure its command and control is not as vulnerable as it used to be. It should have a lot in the rear, a long way away—perhaps thousands of miles away—with only its headquarters forward. We should make sure we invest in the enablers to move it around the world, the continent or wherever it needs to be. That will help. At the moment, the provisional layout of the global response force is a light brigade and 16 Air Assault Brigade, supported by a logistical support brigade. This will give us a whole range of opportunities, including meeting our NATO commitments. Should we wish to do something else with it, we will be able to deliver.

Which was in response to MP Vicky Ford's question

So as it seems that the provisional layout of the global response force is a light brigade and 16 Air Assault Brigade, supported by a logistical support brigade. for me it make more and more sense that the 7th Mech brigade moves into the 3rd division and 16AA moves into the 1st along side what would become the 4th light infantry Global Response brigade plus also as said by moving some infantry unit around we make the 51st Brigade with 4 battalions so we could end up with

1 x Deep Recce Fires brigade with 2 x cavalry , 2 x Artillery , 1 x REME
1 x Armoured brigade with 1 x Cavalry , 2 x Tank , 2 x Infantry , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics , 1 x Engineer , 1 x REME
2 x Mechanised brigades with 1 x Cavalry , 3 x Infantry , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics , 1 x Engineer ,1 x REME
2 x Global Response brigades with 1 x Cavalry , 3 x Infantry *, 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics , 1 x Engineer
1 x Long Range Recce Brigade with 5 x Infantry battalions , 1 x Logistics , 1 x REME
1 x Security Force Assistance brigade with 5 x battalions

* the 4th brigade would parent 1-RGR in Brunei meaning it would have 4 infantry Battalions

[sol]

Long Range Recce Brigade

So what is a role of LRRB with 5 battalions? In what situation it would be used, how and where?

[Tempest414]

Long Range Recce Brigade

So what is a role of LRRB with 5 battalions? In what situation it would be used, how and where?

Africa is fast turning into the new grey zone