The future form of the Army

[Poiuytrewq]

We should not be waiting for this…

Agreed, it’s time to build momentum.

However if the ultimate ambition is to form an all tracked 3rd Div with CH3, Ajax and a direct Warrior replacement then the Boxer procurement should be enough to fully mechanise 1st Div.

A further mixed LRV and HMT procurement could then eventually all be channeled to the air mobile force when the Warrior replacement programme is commenced.

Perhaps the procurement direction of travel isn’t as far from the mark as many think.

[Poiuytrewq]

I don't see us getting to an all tracked division I could see a all tracked armoured Brigade this would need 200 more Ares APC' s with say a RT-60 mount but it would need the CTA 40mm or logistics would be bitch

Winding this back a bit.

Current planning appears to be unashamedly building a British Army down to a price. Given the global volatility likely to be experienced over the next decade is this policy really credible anymore? I would suggest not.

In addition, IMO, the entire ORBAT has become too complicated which has exacerbated the procurement problems by trying to get an insufficient number of vehicles/systems to achieve more than is realistically possible.

Is it now time for the Army to go back to basis?

I would suggest it is but not in a technological sense although it’s certainly time to stop spending £5-£6bn on programs like AJAX.

With a headcount in excess of 100k and an annual budget of more than £12bn, three deployable Divisions should be a minimum target albeit with only one Div actually deployed at any one time.

If this is completely unrealistic and unaffordable it’s time to ask why? It’s not manpower. It’s not funding. Why?

Ukraine has proven many assumptions obsolete and also shown that UK procurement is massively over complicated and expensive. It’s also shown that Western vehicles designs are more survivable and most complicated western systems actually work. However it has also shown that mass is still critical as is a strength in depth.

Therefore it will be pointless learning the lessons around deep fires, overly complex procurement, sophisticated and/or unsophisticated uav’s and next-gen vehicle design if the mass and strength in depth lessons are ignored.

The Army also has to avoid fixating on trying to fight the last war all over again.

By aspiring to have 3 deployable Divisions (Rapid/Air Mobile, Wheeled/Expeditionary, Armoured/Tracked) the Army will have covered all of the bases albeit with some help from RN and the RAF to form the rapidly deployable force.

If it’s only money that’s stopping it from happening how much would it actually cost?

Or is it something else?

[Little J]

Saw this last night, don't think it's been posted before...

[Tempest414]

As said we need to start from the ground up and have a standard Brigade lay out as said for me this should be

1 x Cavalry regt , 3 x Infanrty Battalions , 1 x Artillery regt , 1 x Logistics , 1 x Engineer

So to this core layout you could add a Armoured regt to form a Armoured brigade or a helicopter sqns to form a air assault brigade

As said we have enough core parts to build 6 brigades plus one cavalry and 3 infantry as the starting point of a 7th

Now with the kit we have and kit on order we could build 2 x Armoured Brigades , 2 x light Mechanised brigades 1 x Air Assault brigade and 1 x Rapid response light brigade

Add to this forming 2 fully kitted out reserve brigades around the same core layout

So this could be laid out in to 2 divisions of

1st Div
1 x Air assault brigade
1 x Light Mech brigade
1 x RR Light infantry brigade
1 x Reserve Light infantry brigade

3rd Div
2 x Armoured brigades
1 x Light mech brigade
1 x Reserve Armoured Brigade

6th Div
Special operation Brigade ( Rangers )
77th Brigade
1th security Force Assistance Brigade
1st Aviation brigade

[Ian Hall]

[sol]

100th (Yeomanry) Regiment Royal Artillery is reformed and subordinated to the DRS

[Tempest414]

100th (Yeomanry) Regiment Royal Artillery is reformed and subordinated to the DRS

So another Reserve unit in the DRS time to just cut it and move the full time units to allow 6 brigades with organic artillery stop F-in about we don't have artillery units to form a DRS

[Jackstar]

[Tempest414]

Well this is very close to what I have been asking for - for sometime but for this to work one Cavalry unit and one Artillery unit will need to move from the 3rd to the 1st

[Poiuytrewq]

Well this is very close to what I have been asking for - for sometime but for this to work one Cavalry unit and one Artillery unit will need to move from the 3rd to the 1st

It absolutely is, well done for calling it.

It’s progress but it must just be the first phase of the complete rebuild of the Army.

A few observations:

If the ultimate aspiration for the army is a fully tracked heavy armoured 3rd Div then surely maximum CH3 numbers and a possible relaunch of the Warrior upgrade is sensible?

A fully light mechanised, deployable 1st Div based around Boxer is great but how light? If the UK is going to be concentrating on JEF as the main Army NATO commitment what form should 1st Div Battlegroups actually take? Sub Artic terrain needs to be considered.

If the Army is going Sub Artic on a regular basis how does this change what RM is expected to do?

Is the Global Response Force going to include the Royal Marines and the forward deployed Army units around the world? Rather than air transportable should the GRF be at least partly air mobile?

Lots of questions.

[Tempest414]

Well this is very close to what I have been asking for - for sometime but for this to work one Cavalry unit and one Artillery unit will need to move from the 3rd to the 1st

It absolutely is, well done for calling it.

It’s progress but it must just be the first phase of the complete rebuild of the Army.

A few observations:

If the ultimate aspiration for the army is a fully tracked heavy armoured 3rd Div then surely maximum CH3 numbers and a possible relaunch of the Warrior upgrade is sensible?

A fully light mechanised, deployable 1st Div based around Boxer is great but how light? If the UK is going to be concentrating on JEF as the main Army NATO commitment what form should 1st Div Battlegroups actually take? Sub Artic terrain needs to be considered.

If the Army is going Sub Artic on a regular basis how does this change what RM is expected to do?

Is the Global Response Force going to include the Royal Marines and the forward deployed Army units around the world? Rather than air transportable should the GRF be at least partly air mobile?

Lots of questions.

In the first place the 3rd should look like

1 x Deep Recce Fires brigade = 2 x Cavalry , 3 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics , 1 x Engineer
2 x Armoured brigades = 1 x Cavalry , 1 x Armoured , 2 x Mech Infantry , 1 x Logistics , 1 x engineer , 1 x REME

And it should be equipped with CH3 , Ajax , Boxer , K-9A3 , M270a2

the 1st should look like

1 x Air Assault brigade = 1 x Light Recce strike , 3 x Infantry , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logs , 1 x Engineer
2 x Light Mechanised = 1 x Cavalry , 4 x L-Mech infantry , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logs , 1 x Engineer 1 x REME

and should be equipped with HMV 400 & 600 , Foxhound and Bushmaster

As said the the 3rd should be all about JEF and NATO and the 1st should be about Global Response this can be within Europe with the 1st laid out as above its battlegroups would be air deployable if needed

As for the RM they need to get there heads down to forming there LSU's that can operate alone or in a Battlegroup of say 5 coming together with there main task in the high North being opening the door or keeping it open for a Army brigade

[Poiuytrewq]

I agree that what you have proposed looks achievable in the short term but for the future 1st Div just looks too light.

IMO, by 2030,

• 3rd Div should form around CH3 , Ajax, K-9A3 , M270a2 plus either upgraded Warrior or a Warrior replacement. The money must be found.

• 1st Div should primarily form around Boxer and SupaCat HMT. Between the two main platforms all variants can be introduced, 30mm/Javelin, 120mm mortar, 105mm, Brimstone and GMLRS etc. Archer maintained for 155mm unless Boxer 155 chosen. Smaller, lighter, high mobility vehicles added as necessary. Again the money must be found but with Boxer already funded it should be possible.

• The GRF needs a high degree of air mobility with support based around a flatbed HMT chassis and modular play loads. With peer opposition plausible again the GRF needs serious investment to ensure overmatch.

• If RM is to concentrate on Short Endurance Littoral Strike then proper funding needs to be allocated to become a truly formidable capability like 3 Cdo was until recently. The changes so far look very superficial. The Norway angle needs a rethink as the move to SELS whilst maintaining the traditional Norway commitment looks strategically and tactically contradictory.
  
  Can all this be achieved with 73,000 plus reserves? Not sure but dropping below 80,000 looks foolish IMO.

[SW1]

I suppose when you only have about a brigades worth of engineering logistics and artillery’s available you can always group it into a divisional structure and make it look good by claiming it can support more than one brigade.

If the headcount is remaining at 73K until they lose about 1/3 of the cav/infantry head count and move it to the supporting functions it will remain a paper tiger.

[Tempest414]

I suppose when you only have about a brigades worth of engineering logistics and artillery’s available you can always group it into a divisional structure and make it look good by claiming it can support more than one brigade.

If the headcount is remaining at 73K until they lose about 1/3 of the cav/infantry head count and move it to the supporting functions it will remain a paper tiger.

Under future soldier we have 7 Logs units 11 Engineer so the 3rd could have 1 x Divisional Logs Regt and 3 x support logs Regts and in the 1st could have 1 x Divisional logs Regt and 2 x Support regts both divisions could have 3 reserve regts

[Tempest414]

I agree that what you have proposed looks achievable in the short term but for the future 1st Div just looks too light.

IMO, by 2030,

• 3rd Div should form around CH3 , Ajax, K-9A3 , M270a2 plus either upgraded Warrior or a Warrior replacement. The money must be found.

• 1st Div should primarily form around Boxer and SupaCat HMT. Between the two main platforms all variants can be introduced, 30mm/Javelin, 120mm mortar, 105mm, Brimstone and GMLRS etc. Archer maintained for 155mm unless Boxer 155 chosen. Smaller, lighter, high mobility vehicles added as necessary. Again the money must be found but with Boxer already funded it should be possible.

• The GRF needs a high degree of air mobility with support based around a flatbed HMT chassis and modular play loads. With peer opposition plausible again the GRF needs serious investment to ensure overmatch.

• If RM is to concentrate on Short Endurance Littoral Strike then proper funding needs to be allocated to become a truly formidable capability like 3 Cdo was until recently. The changes so far look very superficial. The Norway angle needs a rethink as the move to SELS whilst maintaining the traditional Norway commitment looks strategically and tactically contradictory.
  
  Can all this be achieved with 73,000 plus reserves? Not sure but dropping below 80,000 looks foolish IMO.

The whole point of the 1st division is to keep it light by keeping it light it remains air portable if we want to give it more teeth we have just seen that M270a2 can be airlifted by A400m

Noe in SF we will have 2 x armoured , 7 x Cavalry , 20 infantry , 7 x Logs , 11 Engineer and 6 REME regts

In the layout above i have used everything apart from 5 Infantry regts so I would look to change 3 of them into Close Combat Logistics regts and the other two into 4 x Rapid Support Units of 300 troops these 4 units would look like 1 x HQ troop , 1 x Logistics troop , 3 x Recce strike troops and a Fire group of 3 M270's these 4 units would be moved to 6th division and the army would look like

1st division
1 x Air Assault brigade = 1 x Light Recce strike , 3 x Infantry , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logs , 1 x Engineer
2 x Light Mechanised = 1 x Cavalry , 4 x L-Mech infantry , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logs , 1 x Engineer 1 x REME
1 x Support brigade = 1 x divisional Logs regt , 1 x CS Logs regt , 2 x Engineer

3rd Division
1 x Deep Recce Fires brigade = 2 x Cavalry , 3 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics , 1 x Engineer
2 x Armoured brigades = 1 x Cavalry , 1 x Armoured , 2 x Mech Infantry , 1 x Logistics , 1 x engineer , 1 x REME
1 x Support brigade = 1 x divisional Logs regt , 1 x CS Logs regt , 2 x Engineer

6th division
1 x 77th brigade
1 x Special Ops Brigade = 4 x Ranger regts , 1 x signals regt
1 x Scecurity Force Assistance brigade = 4 x SFA regts
1 x Rapid Support brigade = 4 x RSU's
1 x Aviation brigade = 4 x ACC regts , 1 x REME

[sol]

Just couple of things. Seems like 6th Division HQ will be disbanded. It is still questionable will 4th Brigade get regular artillery regiment or will it stuck with reserve just as for the logistic elements. Also "light-mechanised" would mean equipping it with whatever came from MRV-P project, so just protected mobility.

Comparing with US or even German and Polish armoured/mechanised divisions, 3rd Division does not look that impressive. Just two manoeuvrable brigades with 2 tanks and 4 to 5 mech battalions (with basically APC and no plan insight to upgrade it to anything stronger). DRS sounds like good idea for mobile war, much less for static one and it looks just like a idea to find some role for two Ajax regiments.

Organisation of the reserve still looks lacklustre with only few units actually be able to mobilize at full strength.

I personally don't see anything to be excited for as, while some things might get fixed compared to FS, it does not look as significant improvement over FS.

[Poiuytrewq]

The whole point of the 1st division is to keep it light…

But how light? Air Transportable or Air Mobile should not mean less lethal.

Where is the lethality in the proposed 1st Div compared with other peer nations?

…by keeping it light it remains air portable if we want to give it more teeth we have just seen that M270a2 can be airlifted by A400m

Why dilute 3rd Dive to reinforce 1st Div?

Why not just add GMLRS to the HMT and give Archer and/or Boxer 155 to 1st Div?

[Poiuytrewq]

Comparing with US or even German and Polish armoured/mechanised divisions, 3rd Division does not look that impressive.

How would that change if planned CH3 numbers increased to 227 and Warrior was upgraded or replaced?

The costs involved aren’t huge if spread out to beyond 2030.

[SW1]

They’re being grouped as they are to make it look better than it is we don’t have enough of the enabling assets to make it work.

It should also be remembered with comparisons we are not Germany or Poland we have different needs.

[Tempest414]

Just couple of things. Seems like 6th Division HQ will be disbanded. It is still questionable will 4th Brigade get regular artillery regiment or will it stuck with reserve just as for the logistic elements. Also "light-mechanised" would mean equipping it with whatever came from MRV-P project, so just protected mobility.

Comparing with US or even German and Polish armoured/mechanised divisions, 3rd Division does not look that impressive. Just two manoeuvrable brigades with 2 tanks and 4 to 5 mech battalions (with basically APC and no plan insight to upgrade it to anything stronger). DRS sounds like good idea for mobile war, much less for static one and it looks just like a idea to find some role for two Ajax regiments.

Organisation of the reserve still looks lacklustre with only few units actually be able to mobilize at full strength.

I personally don't see anything to be excited for as, while some things might get fixed compared to FS, it does not look as significant improvement over FS.

Yes maybe the 6th HQ will go which I think is a mistake as for the the 3rd it is in real terms a bit small but unless we grow the Army its the best we can do

As for the reserve's you are right we need to do more and equip it better if we once again go to FS we should have

1 x Armoured , 3 x Cavalry , 15 x Infantry , 4 x Artillery , 7 x Logistics , 5 x Engineers , 3 x REME

For me we should equip these units properly and re-role them as needed and then move them into brigades maybe something like

1 x Armoured brigade = 1 x Cavalry , 1 x Armoured , 3 x Infantry , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics , 1 x Engineer 1 x REME
1 x Light Mech brigade = 1 x Cavalry , 3 x Infantry , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics , 1 x Engineer 1 x REME
1 x Light infantry brigade = 1 x Cavalry , 4 x Infantry , 1 x Artillery , 1 x Logistics , 1 x Engineer
1 x Support Brigade = 5 x Logistics , 4 x Engineer , 3 x REME

to get to this I have re-rolled 5 infantry units into 1 Logistics , 2 x Engineer and 2 x REME

Now this could stand as a Division on its own or be divided up into the 1st and 3rd Divisions

[Poiuytrewq]

They’re being grouped as they are to make it look better than it is we don’t have enough of the enabling assets to make it work.

Agreed but is a cull of light infantry on that scale politically advantageous?

The decision may be taken that funding the enablers is the easier option. Political expediency may prove to be the deciding factor.

It should also be remembered with comparisons we are not Germany or Poland we have different needs.

True but the UK should always have a credible, deployable, heavy armoured 3rd Division and a fully mechanised and rapidly deployable 1st Division regardless of what any other nation is doing.

The fact that this capability was cut in the first place is a national disgrace.

[SW1]

They’re being grouped as they are to make it look better than it is we don’t have enough of the enabling assets to make it work.

Agreed but is a cull of light infantry on that scale politically advantageous?

The decision may be taken that funding the enablers is the easier option. Political expediency may prove to be the deciding factor.

It should also be remembered with comparisons we are not Germany or Poland we have different needs.

True but the UK should always have a credible, deployable, heavy armoured 3rd Division and a fully mechanised and rapidly deployable 1st Division regardless of what any other nation is doing.

The fact that this capability was cut in the first place is a national disgrace.

Well if you need to remain within an overall head count then there isn’t an alternative. Not much point having paper formations.

Should we thought. The U.K. should have an army formation that is deployable and useful to its allies. We simply don’t have the assets to support a deployable heavy armoured division or anywhere near it for war fighting nor would I argue do we need one.

I think this video is worth a watch as it was the last time we put a 2 armoured brigade division into the field for war fighting

[sol]

How would that change if planned CH3 numbers increased to 227 and Warrior was upgraded or replaced?

It is pointless to have more tanks if there is no units to operate them. It is planned to have 4 regiments equipped with Ajax and 2 with CR3. How could you balance this, if you want more tank units but also to keep all Ajax used? And how to divide all that into two brigade and keep DRS working as intended without not rising/converting more units? Also time for Warrior upgrade has passed, it is time to just get new IFV if there is a wish/will/money for it.

This could potentially be solved by reorganising RAC, into 6 combined arms regiment and 3 light recce. Every CAR could have a recce squadron on Ajax, 2 tank squadrons and 2 armoured infantry companies, with each armoured brigade having 3 of them. Each CAR would be very strong as separate unit and it could provide better rotation for Estonia. 12 tank squadrons would require 132 (11 per squadron) to 168 (14 per squadron) and would not require large increase in number of tanks, with 66 to 84 per brigade. But I doubt that the Army would go with such solution.

And all mech battalions could be grouped into Boxer brigade for rapid deployment and to provide more manpower strength to armoured brigades.

The costs involved aren’t huge if spread out to beyond 2030.

There is so much things that UK needs so finding money without increase in budget will be hard.

[sol]

... and a fully mechanised and rapidly deployable 1st Division regardless of what any other nation is doing.

1st Division will never be fully mechanised in the way people expect. It will use protected mobility, just like current 7th Brigade.

I think this video is worth a watch as it was the last time we put a 2 armoured brigade division into the field for war fighting

And 1st Armoured Division in Kuwait during 1991 had more men and equipment than 3rd Division have now, with more tanks and artillery than whole current army have. Its deployment was possible by using men and weapons from other units to bring it to full strength, and could be reinforced it if necessary, even tho there is not much left for that. It is hard to see how 3rd Division could be fully deployed and supplied in the same manner.

[Tempest414]

The whole point of the 1st division is to keep it light…

But how light? Air Transportable or Air Mobile should not mean less lethal.

Where is the lethality in the proposed 1st Div compared with other peer nations?

…by keeping it light it remains air portable if we want to give it more teeth we have just seen that M270a2 can be airlifted by A400m

Why dilute 3rd Dive to reinforce 1st Div?

Why not just add GMLRS to the HMT and give Archer and/or Boxer 155 to 1st Div?

So if the a light mech Battle group was to have Foxhound , HMT 400/600 and Bushmaster or HMT 600 APC fitted like so

C&C with 12.7mm
APC with RWS fitted with 12.7mm , 30mm , 40mm GMG and Javelin ( each section would have an NLAW )
120mm SP Mortar
105 mm SP GUN
Brimstone Over watch

each Battle group could rock up with 40 x 12.7mm , 20 x 30mm , 30 x 40mm GMG , 81 x NLAW , 60 ready fire Javelin + 2 reloads =180 javelin , 9 x 120mm mortars , 9 x 8 round Brimstone plus 2 reloads = 216 brimstone and 6 x 105mm guns

Now as I said above I would have 4 x Rapid Support Groups each with 3 x Recce Strike troops , and 1 x M270 fire group of 3 x M270's bolt this on to the Battle group above and you have a real hand full

Infantry weapons 50 to 800 meter
APC mounted weapons 50 to 2000 meters
120mm SP mortars 1km to 10kms
105 Gun 500 meters to 20kms
Brimstone 40 kms
M270a2 150kms

So the vehicles are light but the punch is hard