Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Frenchie wrote:It is not right to advertise for vehicles of its own country :D
:lol: :lol:

We know
... but this is like the Wimbledon (and the Scots don't turn out any AFVs :) )
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Little J
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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Little J »

Wasn't sure whether to put this here or else where, so maybe a mod can move it if needs be.

RetroSicotte
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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by RetroSicotte »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:... but this is like the Wimbledon (and the Scots don't turn out any AFVs :) )
Most ice cream trucks that have to work the east end of Glasgow may disagree. :P

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Mercator »

Not sure if this info is already out there, but apparently the Bushmaster will be built at a Thales facility in Glasgow, if selected for MRV-P.

The Australian Defence Minister apparently plans to visit:
https://www.minister.defence.gov.au/min ... france-and

Lord Jim
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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Lord Jim »

Although the picture is of the HMT I like the idea behind a 4x4/6x6 that can be carried inside a CH-47, perhaps 16AA should have a closer look?
https://www.janes.com/article/90964/con ... y-dsei19d1

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

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The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Jake1992 »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/uklandpowe ... ramme/amp/

It’s a bit old now but is there any truth in the issues with JLTV ? If so and the price keeps rising like it has from $450k to $700k ( £550k odd ) per unit would it be worth reconsidering a UK option like Foxhound or others.

Foxhound single unit price is around £1m but when the initial 350 order is looked at the unit price went down to around £800k. With a much larger order of 2,500 plus IMO I could see the price drop much closer to that of the JLTV.
All in all when everything’s taken in to account in rising JLTV price, JLTV problems, Foxhound prise decrees due to larger order and wider UK benefits from UK build could it be time to reconsider ?

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by RetroSicotte »

Jake1992 wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/uklandpowe ... ramme/amp/

It’s a bit old now but is there any truth in the issues with JLTV ? If so and the price keeps rising like it has from $450k to $700k ( £550k odd ) per unit would it be worth reconsidering a UK option like Foxhound or others.

Foxhound single unit price is around £1m but when the initial 350 order is looked at the unit price went down to around £800k. With a much larger order of 2,500 plus IMO I could see the price drop much closer to that of the JLTV.
All in all when everything’s taken in to account in rising JLTV price, JLTV problems, Foxhound prise decrees due to larger order and wider UK benefits from UK build could it be time to reconsider ?
Pretty much what I said back when. Foxhound was a known vehicle, in service, trained with, built in country, can be adapted in country, offers jobs, skills, future developments, exports and retains the industry, plus tax return on investment, and that JLTV was an unknown quantity that had yet to go through the process of development that almost every US project gains price on.

Yet again short term decisions to save pennies ultimately end up spending more in the long term.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

May be I've missed it, but the Batch2 MRVP (the bigger one)... is the selection still running?
- also the plan was to buy what is immediately needed (a hundred and a half; and about as many later)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Jake1992 »

RetroSicotte wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/uklandpowe ... ramme/amp/

It’s a bit old now but is there any truth in the issues with JLTV ? If so and the price keeps rising like it has from $450k to $700k ( £550k odd ) per unit would it be worth reconsidering a UK option like Foxhound or others.

Foxhound single unit price is around £1m but when the initial 350 order is looked at the unit price went down to around £800k. With a much larger order of 2,500 plus IMO I could see the price drop much closer to that of the JLTV.
All in all when everything’s taken in to account in rising JLTV price, JLTV problems, Foxhound prise decrees due to larger order and wider UK benefits from UK build could it be time to reconsider ?
Pretty much what I said back when. Foxhound was a known vehicle, in service, trained with, built in country, can be adapted in country, offers jobs, skills, future developments, exports and retains the industry, plus tax return on investment, and that JLTV was an unknown quantity that had yet to go through the process of development that almost every US project gains price on.

Yet again short term decisions to save pennies ultimately end up spending more in the long term.
I can understand the logic at the beginning it was expected that the super sized US order ( up to 40,000 odd I believe ) would keep the price right down, this I can understand as it’s not the MOD job to keep industry going in this country but with the large increase in price and most likely further increase it starts to tip the logic back towards a UK built design.

The other good thing about choosing Foxhound would be that it’s modular set would make spiral evolution much easier like with the Boxer.
ArmChairCivvy wrote:May be I've missed it, but the Batch2 MRVP (the bigger one)... is the selection still running?
- also the plan was to buy what is immediately needed (a hundred and a half; and about as many later)
My understanding was that the objective of this project was to replace all Panthers, Huskies, LR RWMIK, snatch LR, Pinzgauer and eventually Foxhounds. Yes they’ll be ordered in batches but the over all large order giving a continued build line would bring unit cost down compared to the small order and rush job of the UOR.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

With "the bigger one" I meant this part of the prgrm
Multi Role Vehicle — Protected (MRV-P) Troop Carrying Vehicle (TCV) and Future Protected Battlefield Ambulance (FPBFA)
and why would they - the limited number - be ordered in 'two halves'?
- I guess to stretch the monies; the ambulance rqrnnt being more urgent (reading between the lines)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by RetroSicotte »

Jake1992 wrote:I can understand the logic at the beginning it was expected that the super sized US order ( up to 40,000 odd I believe ) would keep the price right down, this I can understand as it’s not the MOD job to keep industry going in this country
But one would think it is their job to look at it and say "Okay, almost every single US project of this scale has gained X% after the process it has yet to do is done in the last Y many years, perhaps we should estimate that based on other major projects vs the KNOWN cost of Foxhound and make a decision based on that?"

It seems like they just optimistically assumed something that almost never happens would happen.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by RunningStrong »

Jake1992 wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/uklandpowe ... ramme/amp/

It’s a bit old now but is there any truth in the issues with JLTV ? If so and the price keeps rising like it has from $450k to $700k ( £550k odd ) per unit would it be worth reconsidering a UK option like Foxhound or others.

Foxhound single unit price is around £1m but when the initial 350 order is looked at the unit price went down to around £800k. With a much larger order of 2,500 plus IMO I could see the price drop much closer to that of the JLTV.
All in all when everything’s taken in to account in rising JLTV price, JLTV problems, Foxhound prise decrees due to larger order and wider UK benefits from UK build could it be time to reconsider ?
Foxhound will escalate further due to:
- The UOR fleet and build standard has to be upgraded to core standards
- The production line would need to be restarted at a new location

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Dahedd »

As a civvie looking in expanding on the Foxhound & Supacat ranges has ways seemed like a no brainer, but what do I know.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Jake1992 »

RetroSicotte wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:I can understand the logic at the beginning it was expected that the super sized US order ( up to 40,000 odd I believe ) would keep the price right down, this I can understand as it’s not the MOD job to keep industry going in this country
But one would think it is their job to look at it and say "Okay, almost every single US project of this scale has gained X% after the process it has yet to do is done in the last Y many years, perhaps we should estimate that based on other major projects vs the KNOWN cost of Foxhound and make a decision based on that?"

It seems like they just optimistically assumed something that almost never happens would happen.
Completely agree here
RunningStrong wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/uklandpowe ... ramme/amp/

It’s a bit old now but is there any truth in the issues with JLTV ? If so and the price keeps rising like it has from $450k to $700k ( £550k odd ) per unit would it be worth reconsidering a UK option like Foxhound or others.

Foxhound single unit price is around £1m but when the initial 350 order is looked at the unit price went down to around £800k. With a much larger order of 2,500 plus IMO I could see the price drop much closer to that of the JLTV.
All in all when everything’s taken in to account in rising JLTV price, JLTV problems, Foxhound prise decrees due to larger order and wider UK benefits from UK build could it be time to reconsider ?
Foxhound will escalate further due to:
- The UOR fleet and build standard has to be upgraded to core standards
- The production line would need to be restarted at a new location
Ok so let look at cost then, Foxhound under a 350 order came in at around £800k per unit, if the costs of changes ( would this add cost since they will be made before build and not after ) and costs of setting up prediction line bring it back up to £1m per unit ( if production cost can’t be agree from treasury or DTI under a much more generous Saj )

JLTV cost already increased from $450k to $700k ( £550k ) per unit, this is expected to rise again along with addition cost to put right “supposed” issues, I could safely assumed IMO end costs will be around £700k per unit.

Now with Saj seeming to be more open to increase spending accord the board along with him being more interested in investing in British manufacturing could a deal we made to allow some of the extra cost to be brought back ? I am more positive of that now than with his predasesor.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Lord Jim »

The "Problems" found by the US Army and its possible reduction in orders needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. Yes they have realised that the they do not need to replace all of their Humvees. There might be problems with how the JLTV is laid out making less efficient as a TOW launch platform, and the elephant in the room, the US Army is desperate to move funds into its other high priority programmes and some believe the JLTV is a platform design for the last war, Afghanistan. IF the US Military reduce their orders or even raise the possibility of doing so, the price per vehicle is going to go up in theory.

With the UK we are getting into the same ole mess we have done with nearly every Army platform for decades. We start second guessing ourselves, nudging the goal post a little bit one way and then another, all before the big decision has to be made. We change the number of units to be purchase up and down, slow down deliveries to keep to yearly budgets at so on.

The Army desperately need to be re equipped throughout its formations and though some progress is being made, the result will be the usual, we will not but enough, nor the needed variants. The Army needs more resources to procure the necessary platform it need to replace the multitude of old and/or worn out platforms still in service and reduce the number of platform types. The shame is that in the grand scheme of the Defence Budget, the funding needed to d this is small compared to the cost of the major programmes being run by the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy.

So the Army needs to just get on with it and but the bloody platforms its needs and carry out the upgrades to the platforms it is retaining. Get them into service now, even if only in vanilla form and have a mapped out development programme for them in the years to come. They Army is spoilt for choice for platforms to meet the MRV(P) requirement, they need to stop thinking too hard.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Ron5 »

JLTV is in production right now so costs are well understood. Exchange rates would be the biggest issue.

However isn't the elephant in the room the fact that the american vehicle is much better and comes in more variants and options?

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Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Ron5 wrote:isn't the elephant in the room the fact that the american vehicle is much better and comes in more variants and options?
It is, but the question has been raised whether it has been designed for the 'last war' ie. an Iraq like scenario... and should the order quantities for formations that are optimised for a 'hot war' be scaled back, in favour of 'something else'. [Oh bugger; LJ already pretty much said that]
- one option (that I have not previously seen) is the Javelin/ autocannon combo, last page (p.36) in Oct. issue of Desider
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Jake1992 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Ron5 wrote:isn't the elephant in the room the fact that the american vehicle is much better and comes in more variants and options?
It is, but the question has been raised whether it has been designed for the 'last war' ie. an Iraq like scenario... and should the order quantities for formations that are optimised for a 'hot war' be scaled back, in favour of 'something else'. [Oh bugger; LJ already pretty much said that]
- one option (that I have not previously seen) is the Javelin/ autocannon combo, last page (p.36) in Oct. issue of Desider
This is one reason I keep coming back to Foxhound as it’s modular design allows for an easier evolution path for different situations down the line.

If we’re going to look at auto cannons on light vehicle one that has grabbed my eye was the Panhard Crab. It can be fitted out for Reece ops along with a 30mm chain gun with “bolt on” extras this along with its low profile and manoverbility sets it up as an ideal urban warfare vehicle to me along with fire support for lighter forces.
Ron5 wrote:JLTV is in production right now so costs are well understood. Exchange rates would be the biggest issue.

However isn't the elephant in the room the fact that the american vehicle is much better and comes in more variants and options?
This is another reason to look at UK build, over the next few years we could see the exchange rate fluctuate quite abit before settling closer to $1.30 odd instead of the $1.50 odd previously expected IMO. UK build would shield us from a good portion of this.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by SD67 »

I’m sceptical about JLTV. US commercial vehicles have a reputation - mass produced down to a price and you need to buy 3 to keep 2 on the road. Maybe JLTV is different but I’d want to see the total cost of ownership.
What commonality does it have with the rest of the fleet? A new stand alone platform with its own logistics. And it’s the same footprint as a Bushmaster so whys it needed?

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Lord Jim »

One of the key drivers for the JLTV was for it to be more reliable and require less maintenance with the time between overhaul being far greater than the vehicles it will partially replace in the US Military. Yes when work is required it is more involved that its predecessors but you have to do t he work les often.

As for commonality, well it is the same as asking for the Boxer to have commonality with the Ajax. The possible UK fleet size really negates the need for any commonality, and as with all new vehicles including MBTs, deep maintenance is now usually carried out by the manufacturer on site, and spares etc are covered, at least initially, but the procurement contract.

Finally I wouldn't class the JLTV as a commercial vehicle. Yes it roots maybe there but it I a very different beast from a Ford F150, which is a bloody good pick up by the way and the biggest selling vehicle in the world, going by units built and sold.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Jake1992 »

What are the pros and cons of choosing either JLTV or a UK built design like Foxhound ?

IMO JLTV pros -
Larger order bring down global logistics cost
Supposed low purchase cost ( even though this keeps climbing )
Commonality with our closest ally

Cons -
Risk of increasing cost due to currency fluctuation
Rising unit cost ( as seems to happen often with US projects )
Loss of build work in the UK
New logistics line

Foxhound pros -
Already in service logistics and training lines
Modular design allow easier spiral development similar to Boxer
Boost to UK armour manufacturing
At least 30% comes back in tax
Larger order with multiple new variants giving greater chance of possible UK exports

Cons -
Higher unit cost ( might change if the pound drops or JLTV cost keep going up )
Smaller global supply chain may cause higher spares cost
Not commonality with the US

Weighing up both I still feel Foxhound is the better way to go especially since the cosy grounds of JLTV are ever shrinking due to its rising costs. Couple this with the tax take from foxhound and the employment it’ll give over brings the cost of both very close.
But what sways it for is foxhounds modular set up that would give the fleet greater flexibility in the same way Boxer does over other 8x8s

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by Lord Jim »

Probably the biggest decider for the MoD when it stated a preference for the JLTV has been the original price quoted. At the time its seemed too good to be true and this has been shown to be the case. With the JLTV's price increase it does bring a multitude of platform into play if a competition was run including the Foxhound, but due to past issues the Army especially seems to want to keep things simple, fud a platform they believe will do the job needed and single source it without a true completion. This has major pros and cons, but in my opinion the need for new platforms is so great within the Army that it needs to get programmes moving as fast as possible, getting these new platforms into service. It is interesting thought, to see that the MRV(P) programme has slowed down now after the media hype that went with the announcement that the JLTV was the preferred platform and the size of the potential order. Maybe there will be a rethink after all.

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote: the size of the potential order. Maybe there will be a rethink after all.
Like... that our main formations have quite different needs. Standardisation at the back end is good, but JLTV is in the grey zone, between the direct fire zone and and the back end, protected by other formations.

Start with the Jackals/ Coyotes... there is always a good use for them, somewhere. Even if an RM cdo, or two, will have two sets of vehicles parked somewhere: tracked for the snow, and wheeled for expanses of sand.
- basic (logs) BVs are wearing out; there are only a hundred of the refurbed (protected) Vikings, if we won't buy more

Sell the Italian Linces... Russian military police seem to be driving around northern Syria in them, so sell to them and they just swap their own HMG onto the top

Then the phasing out of MRAPs comes naturally as their replacements will be slow in arriving.

What else? Oh, Foxhounds, the engineering marvel, better than anything else. What shall we do with them?

So, roll on with JLTVs, but in no hurry and it will all work out just fine (with time)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Multi Role Vehicle – Protected - MRV(P)

Post by SD67 »

Lord Jim wrote:One of the key drivers for the JLTV was for it to be more reliable and require less maintenance with the time between overhaul being far greater than the vehicles it will partially replace in the US Military. Yes when work is required it is more involved that its predecessors but you have to do t he work les often.

As for commonality, well it is the same as asking for the Boxer to have commonality with the Ajax. The possible UK fleet size really negates the need for any commonality, and as with all new vehicles including MBTs, deep maintenance is now usually carried out by the manufacturer on site, and spares etc are covered, at least initially, but the procurement contract.

Finally I wouldn't class the JLTV as a commercial vehicle. Yes it roots maybe there but it I a very different beast from a Ford F150, which is a bloody good pick up by the way and the biggest selling vehicle in the world, going by units built and sold.
My understanding is that if we buy JLTV we’ll likely be operating :
Jackal powered by a 6.7 litre Cummins
Bushmaster powered by a 7.2 litre Cat
Foxhound powered by a Steyr monoblock - 5 litres I believe
Jltv powered by I believe a 6 litre GM based engine
Then of course all the CVRTs which I believe are now powered by 5.9 litre Cummins b series (made in UK)

Excuse me if to an outsider that looks like a bit of a mess.

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