German Armed Forces

[Caribbean]

Luftwaffe unable to train pilots
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/0 ... ge-planes/

[topman]

Luftwaffe unable to train pilots
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/0 ... ge-planes/

Thing with GaF is they've got a good set up. Whenever I've seen them on det they come with everything, plenty of kit infact tons of it more than we have, like for like.
I guess it's all under lock and key back home, I'd think they go all out for what we'd consider a fairly routine det and spend what they have there and leave nothing for normal flying at home. A feast and famine situation.

[Lord Jim]

Or those who run the GaF want to give the impression to their allies that everything is fine, hiding the issues that are causing problems at home. But it is not just the GaF, but the whole German military that is in crisis. They are becoming a liability to NATO as they cannot be relied upon to produce the goods when it hits the fan, yet still want to be treated as one to the big guys at NATO meetings. They need to be made to seat at the kids table at future meeting until they agree to spend enough to deserve to once again sit at the grown ups table.

[topman]

I don't think that they are kidding anyone. Their problems are well publicised.

I guess the root cause is the german voters, they have a different view of the world to others in Europe.

[Qwerty]

I don't think that they are kidding anyone. Their problems are well publicised.

I guess the root cause is the german voters, they have a different view of the world to others in Europe.

80 years ago, Germany was militaristic and that was bad...

Now Germany is peaceful, that’s bad...

[Jake1992]

I don't think that they are kidding anyone. Their problems are well publicised.

I guess the root cause is the german voters, they have a different view of the world to others in Europe.

80 years ago, Germany was militaristic and that was bad...

Now Germany is peaceful, that’s bad...

It’s about having that happy medium, most in the west would like to see Germany be running a military similar to Italy ( but more land focused ), this would mean they are not solely reliant on allies and spare them being just embarrassing with out making others feeling like it’s another round of here we go again.

[Lord Jim]

Germany was not militaristic 30 years ago was it?

[Pseudo]

Germany was not militaristic 30 years ago was it?

About a quarter of it was pretty militaristic.

[Meriv9]

I don't think that they are kidding anyone. Their problems are well publicised.

I guess the root cause is the german voters, they have a different view of the world to others in Europe.

80 years ago, Germany was militaristic and that was bad...

Now Germany is peaceful, that’s bad...

Because it goes always to the extremes, it doesn't know a midway, it is white or black, they totaly disregarded the martial power and went full economic power and it is ending exactly as the last time, the economic consequences are showing thanks to its Beggar thy neighbor policies (Im not the one saying so, it is the Nobel prize Krugman).

It goes from Merkel sending back the crying Palestinian girl to accepting a million and a half refugees.

From treating with draconian rule the Greeks, to the Danske Bank swept under the carpet like nothing (or DB N° bankruptcy if you prefer)

And soo on.

[Lord Jim]

As I said above, if Germany doesn't want to play a major role militarily within NATO then it cannot expect to play a major pollical role within that organisation. WE are probably gong to see a shift in responsibility to the east anyway with the views and needs of the newer nation being given far more weight that the older members like Germany, the Netherlands and so on when it comes to US investment . Germany's main role could become simply the transportation and logistics centre, with its financial contribution being concentrated of facilitating the movement of forces through their country. Military support form other countries will probably be reduced as the US for example moves its forces east to new bases, and Germany will have to assume all responsibilities for the guarding of its airspace and borders more so than at present. Other NATO members possibly choosing to train with nations to the east rather than Germany could also happen. This and other issues will mean Germany loses it influence within NATO, no longer being seen as a key members, but more akin to a nation like Belgium. Germany will come to rely totally on its economic power for its standing on the world stage and will be judged by this. If its economy falters its influence ill also. This may be a good thing as far as the German voters go, but the World as a whole is becoming more unstable and Countries need to be able to protect their interests. What effect could Germany not being able to protect its global trade have. We have seen the effects of a single tanker being impounded by Iran has had on the status of the UK and the price of oil. Without the means to protect its trade, Germany will be at the mercy of any nation who wishes to inflict harm on the global economy, being seen as a soft target.

[abc123]

Not saying that current state of BW is good.
But, on the other hand, I fully understand the reluctance of German Government to invest a lot into defence.
A) any big and strong BW will bring cries about Fourth Reich. If anything, Germany wants to awoid that.
B) Germany has nothing to gain by having strong military
C) They have no real military dangers
D) Strong BW means more demands to take a part in operations against states Germany has no real interest to fight, from Libya to Syria or Iran.
With weak BW they can claim that they would, but can't.
E) Any positive consequences of such actions will go to USA, and maybe UK, France, while refugees and financial support will go to Germany
F) Russia has a big role as a counterweight to US/UK and France, not to mention energy and trade, so why would Germany go out it's way to antagonise them? Because of whom? Poland? Where every second statement is reparations and Fourth Reich...

[SW1]

German like any nation deploys armed forces were it see a national interest and based on what its electorate see as acceptable. It does deploy on nato air policing and elsewhere that they have tighter restrictions than other is also an issue. Part of the problem is NATO has expanded its mission beyond its brief to operations well out of its traditional area largely in its attempt to remain relevant.

Having equipment they struggle to support and man is hardly unique to the Germans, were not exactly leaders in funding manpower and support contracts adequately. There’s always a balance to be struck Germany may well be to far one way some would argue were to far the other.

We have seen the effects of a single tanker being impounded by Iran has had on the status of the UK and the price of oil

Yep the oil price is well on its way to correction territory off feb March highs by more than 10% so if that the reaction to Iran taking a tanker if would take another one filling up will be a lot cheaper in a few weeks.

[topman]

I don't think that they are kidding anyone. Their problems are well publicised.

I guess the root cause is the german voters, they have a different view of the world to others in Europe.

80 years ago, Germany was militaristic and that was bad...

Now Germany is peaceful, that’s bad...

They don't see it as bad, from what I've seen Russia is seen as a bogey man. Many see the threats to Europe as hugely over blown.

That's their view, who's to say it's wrong?

[xav]

Rheinmetall & MBDA to Develop, Test Laser Weapon for German Navy K130 Corvette

Rheinmetall and MBDA Deutschland have agreed to collaborate in the high-energy laser effectors domain. The two companies intend to construct, integrate and test a laser demonstrator for the German Navy’s corvette K130.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -corvette/

^ Is it me of MBDA now has laser weapon projects in
- The UK (Dragonfire)
- Germany (with this)
- France (to a lesser extent with a test lab recently openned near Bordeaux with DGA or some state entity)

But these project are all independant / national with no link (let alone shared technologies) between one another

The only one missing is MBDA Italy, and you'll get a full house for this non sense

[abc123]

US wants that Germany spends more on defence or they will move US troops from Germany to Poland

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... oland.html

[SKB]

Germany's economy shrank during the April-to-June period of this year.
A decline in exports dampened growth, according to official data, which comes amid concerns of a global slowdown.
Gross domestic product (GDP) fell by 0.1% compared with the previous quarter, according to the Federal Statistics Office.
That takes the annual growth rate down to 0.4%. Germany, Europe's largest economy, narrowly avoided a recession last year.

More: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49342012

[Lord Jim]

The German economy might have shrunk but they can still afford to spend more on defence if they actually wanted to, but they don't. Poland would be a far better place to station the US troops these days anyway, and they might as well get the small economic benefit from having US Service men and women there.

[abc123]

German Federal Police patrol ships of Potsdam class will get BAE 57 mm guns:

https://navaltoday.com/2019/09/04/germa ... aval-guns/

[Lord Jim]

Surely we can afford three or four of these lovely guns with the relevant support package for the B2 Rivers.

[Tinman]

As I said above, if Germany doesn't want to play a major role militarily within NATO then it cannot expect to play a major pollical role within that organisation. WE are probably gong to see a shift in responsibility to the east anyway with the views and needs of the newer nation being given far more weight that the older members like Germany, the Netherlands and so on when it comes to US investment . Germany's main role could become simply the transportation and logistics centre, with its financial contribution being concentrated of facilitating the movement of forces through their country. Military support form other countries will probably be reduced as the US for example moves its forces east to new bases, and Germany will have to assume all responsibilities for the guarding of its airspace and borders more so than at present. Other NATO members possibly choosing to train with nations to the east rather than Germany could also happen. This and other issues will mean Germany loses it influence within NATO, no longer being seen as a key members, but more akin to a nation like Belgium. Germany will come to rely totally on its economic power for its standing on the world stage and will be judged by this. If its economy falters its influence ill also. This may be a good thing as far as the German voters go, but the World as a whole is becoming more unstable and Countries need to be able to protect their interests. What effect could Germany not being able to protect its global trade have. We have seen the effects of a single tanker being impounded by Iran has had on the status of the UK and the price of oil. Without the means to protect its trade, Germany will be at the mercy of any nation who wishes to inflict harm on the global economy, being seen as a soft target.

Paragraphs mate!

[ArmChairCivvy]

Germany's main role could become simply the transportation and logistics centre

It is naturally in that position, and makes sense to recognise that in any planning.

as the US for example moves its forces east

Yes, the Poland move makes sense. But look at any major reorg's in Europe over the past decade (err, when was 'Georgia' again?) and in fact USAFE has been pulled back, towards the West... can we see an Iskander effect here? And INF being moribund just adds petrol on any such flames (fears, or call the 'scenarios' in planning speak).

[abc123]

Germany's main role could become simply the transportation and logistics centre

It is naturally in that position, and makes sense to recognise that in any planning.

as the US for example moves its forces east

Yes, the Poland move makes sense. But look at any major reorg's in Europe over the past decade (err, when was 'Georgia' again?) and in fact USAFE has been pulled back, towards the West... can we see an Iskander effect here? And INF being moribund just adds petrol on any such flames (fears, or call the 'scenarios' in planning speak).

Well, if the danger of Russia is so big as man cound conclude by listening the western politicians, then it makes a perfect sense to move US/UK forces east, into Baltic countries, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria etc. Any US soldier being in Germany instead of say Poland or Estonia is a waste of manpower and money.

[abc123]

Surely we can afford three or four of these lovely guns with the relevant support package for the B2 Rivers.

I don't know what's the cost, but I doubt it's more than 5 mil. USD a piece.

[andrew98]

Surely we can afford three or four of these lovely guns with the relevant support package for the B2 Rivers.

I don't know what's the cost, but I doubt it's more than 5 mil. USD a piece.

But once you add all the costs of training, support, integration to the combat management systems, separate ammo types it will be bloody expensive.

Only affordable or justifiable if there is a wholesale adoption off the 57mm and its put on basically everything the RN/RFA own.

[xav]

TKMS & Kongsberg unveil ‘ORCCA’ New Combat Management System for Submarines

At the 7th International Submarine Conference SubCon 2019 kta naval systems, a joint venture of thyssenkrupp Marine Systems and Kongsberg, presented its new combat system for non-nuclear submarines. The system called ORCCA combines for the first-time maximum adaptability with the highest level of IT security.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ubmarines/

--

TKMS Unveils FC4G 4th Generation Fuel Cell System

During its quadrennial SubCon submarine conference held in Kiel, thyssenkrupp Marine Systems unveiled the 4th Generation Fuel Cell (FC4G) for submarine applications after having finished an extensive test program with more than 70,000 operating hours in the test environment. This is an improvement of an already unrivalled and proven system.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ll-system/