F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
For how long can NATO realistically accept that one of it's member states can adopts an air defence system made by it's main "potential" enemy yet still remain a member. The decision will harm the collective security of all member states. What value iwould Article 5 be then?
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
So how many is it that we have based in the UK now across the two squadrons?SKB wrote:
Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
15dmereifield wrote:So how many is it that we have based in the UK now across the two squadrons?
Three still in the States.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
Thanks. Are those the three test airframes?RichardIC wrote:15dmereifield wrote:So how many is it that we have based in the UK now across the two squadrons?
Three still in the States.
Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
Wrong. All the Lightnings will have that marking and NO Sqn markings will be applied.Qwerty wrote:The aircraft in the image is marked up for 617...
Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
(Dave Pilsworth Filmography / Airshows Tilbury) 17th July 2019
All six landing at RAF Marham on 16th July.
Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
So the "Lightning" flash on the tail is related to the aircraft name and not the traditional squadron symbol of 617 Squadron then. Good to know.downsizer wrote:Wrong. All the Lightnings will have that marking and NO Sqn markings will be applied.
Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
Using Ukserials.com, I've worked out which and when individual F-35B's were delivered to Marham.
http://www.ukserials.com/ (click ZM section)
Total number: 18. (15 in UK, 3 in US)
First batch of 4 delivered to RAF Marham on 6th June 2018 (BK11/ZM145, BK12/ZM146, BK13/ZM147, BK14/ZM148)
Second batch of 5 delivered to RAF Marham on 3rd August 2018 (BK06/ZM140, BK07/ZM141, BK08/ZM142, BK09/ZM143, BK10/ZM144)
Third batch of 6 delivered to RAF Marham on 16th July 2019 (BK03/ZM137*, BK05/ZM139, BK15/ZM149, BK16/ZM150, BK17/ZM151, BK18/ZM152)
*second time in UK, BK03/ZM137 briefly visited RAF Fairford in July 2016 for RIAT 2016, before returning to US.
Three in US: (BK01/ZM135, BK02/ZM136, BK04/ZM138)
(List: @GBdefcorrect)
BK01/ZM135 was the first British built F-35B, but has not (yet) been to the UK.
BK03/ZM137 was the first RAF F-35B to fly, land and takeoff in the UK at RAF Fairford in July 2016 for RIAT 2016, but returned to the US shortly afterwards. Was finally delivered to RAF Marham on 16th July 2019.
30 more F-35B's are on order: (BK19/ZM153 to BK48/ZM182), bringing total number of aircraft to 48.
18 further reserved F-35B registrys: (ZM183 to ZM200) ZM201 to ZM299 are also unused and available.
http://www.ukserials.com/ (click ZM section)
Total number: 18. (15 in UK, 3 in US)
First batch of 4 delivered to RAF Marham on 6th June 2018 (BK11/ZM145, BK12/ZM146, BK13/ZM147, BK14/ZM148)
Second batch of 5 delivered to RAF Marham on 3rd August 2018 (BK06/ZM140, BK07/ZM141, BK08/ZM142, BK09/ZM143, BK10/ZM144)
Third batch of 6 delivered to RAF Marham on 16th July 2019 (BK03/ZM137*, BK05/ZM139, BK15/ZM149, BK16/ZM150, BK17/ZM151, BK18/ZM152)
*second time in UK, BK03/ZM137 briefly visited RAF Fairford in July 2016 for RIAT 2016, before returning to US.
Three in US: (BK01/ZM135, BK02/ZM136, BK04/ZM138)
(List: @GBdefcorrect)
BK01/ZM135 was the first British built F-35B, but has not (yet) been to the UK.
BK03/ZM137 was the first RAF F-35B to fly, land and takeoff in the UK at RAF Fairford in July 2016 for RIAT 2016, but returned to the US shortly afterwards. Was finally delivered to RAF Marham on 16th July 2019.
30 more F-35B's are on order: (BK19/ZM153 to BK48/ZM182), bringing total number of aircraft to 48.
18 further reserved F-35B registrys: (ZM183 to ZM200) ZM201 to ZM299 are also unused and available.
Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…
Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
I do not think the founding documents allow for the expulsion of a member - minor legal issue!abc123 wrote:Turkey kicked out of the F-35 programme:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49023115
Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
"In a statement on Wednesday, White House spokeswoman Stephanie Grisham said: "Unfortunately, Turkey's decision to purchase Russian S-400 air defence systems renders its continued involvement with the F-35 impossible."Old RN wrote:I do not think the founding documents allow for the expulsion of a member - minor legal issue!abc123 wrote:Turkey kicked out of the F-35 programme:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49023115
If they can impose sanctions on Russia, they can do the same thing to Turkey as well.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…
Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
I really don’t know where turkeys headed strategically but it’s certainly getting ever more concerning. Indeed it’s quite a mess in general! Opens up a whole host of questions over independence of operation of f35 should the United States decide it doesn’t like what your doing with them.Old RN wrote:I do not think the founding documents allow for the expulsion of a member - minor legal issue!abc123 wrote:Turkey kicked out of the F-35 programme:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49023115
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
I thought only 17 were on order? These 17 are the last to be ordered under the LRIP's. Any more orders placed will be done as part of the Full Rate Production lots at a low price.SKB wrote:30 more F-35B's are on order: (BK19/ZM153 to BK48/ZM182)
Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
Just quoting http://www.ukserials.com/ data. (click ZM section)Timmymagic wrote:I thought only 17 were on order? These 17 are the last to be ordered under the LRIP's. Any more orders placed will be done as part of the Full Rate Production lots at a low price.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
Think that they're confusing actual order with MoD plan.SKB wrote:Just quoting http://www.ukserials.com/ data. (click ZM section)
Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
It's a completely understandable and logical outcome, but I also expect that it could result in Turkey pretty much saving the Su-57 programme and maybe even making it financially viable for Russia to buy it in reasonably significant numbers. As far as the US and NATO is concerned it's a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situation. At this point, with the chances of Turkey joining the EU effectively nil it's probably worth considering how far we can go down this road with them and still maintain their NATO membership.abc123 wrote:Turkey kicked out of the F-35 programme:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49023115
Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
The main benefit to Turkey of being a member of NATO nowadays had been the access to US technology and sales credits. With these possibly reducing or going away entirely, and the present Political leadership in Turkey, things are likely to get much more fragile. Turkey main bargaining chip are the bases, but if alternative can be found who knows how long Turkey will remain. It would be interesting if, with the consent of the Cypriot Government, the UK SBAs were expanded and designated as NTO facilities. That would really rub Turkey's face in it so to speak.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
I have a suspicion it'd take a lot more than that. They're already offering Turkey Su-35s (just a change in two letters really!) rather than an invite to the Su-57.Pseudo wrote:It's a completely understandable and logical outcome, but I also expect that it could result in Turkey pretty much saving the Su-57 programme and maybe even making it financially viable for Russia to buy it in reasonably significant numbers.
Given the Su-57s status as at best somewhere between Typhoon/Rafale and F-22/F-35 and realistically not even that, the delay this would still cause till it ever enters service would put it far out of date once F-35 is the standard. The loss of the Su-57 program from being on schedule has been one of the harshest knockbacks the Russian Air Force has ever had. That thing needed to be in numbers years ago to be top end competitive, but its missed its mark so much that the Russians are quite rightly reflecting on just what they should even do now rather than sinking money into it.
Pretty much all it had going for it above other designs was its "stealth", and that (according to the Indians and SUkhoi's patents) was a dismal failure of the design that from vague estimates looked more like the Typhoon's frontal aspect. Everything else it has can be retrofitted to, or mounted on, much cheaper aircraft.
Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
From Aviation Week:
A year after their arrival to home shores, Britain’s Lockheed Martin F-35 operations are gathering pace.
The nine-strong fleet, joined by an additional six aircraft on July 16, were declared operational in January, then deployed overseas and performed their first operational missions over Syria.
The flights over Syria were the culmination of Exercise Lightning Dawn, which saw six of the B-model short-takeoff-and-landing versions of the F-35 sent to RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus, proving the ability to deploy the aircraft to a remote location away from the normal logistics chain.
The UK also sent a deployable operations facility to support the Cyprus mission.
British F-35s flew 16 missions over Syria and Iraq as part of anti-Islamic State group mission.
“Lightning Dawn was a proof of concept,” says Wing Commander John Butcher, who is commanding the Royal Air Force’s 617 Sqdn., the first British front line unit to fly the F-35.
“We were assessing the many elements that support Lightning at range, mission support systems as well as getting spares out to Akrotiri,” he says.
At Akrotiri the F-35s flew a range of air-to-air and air-to-ground exercises, “the whole gambit,” Butcher says, routinely flying four-ship training missions.
Flying from Cyprus, even while their counterparts in the Eurofighter Typhoon community were flying live missions, provided a “stable test” environment.
“It’s a little like a science experiment, you know what good looks like,” says Butcher, “If you go where other combat aircraft are operating, you can really do an assessment about how you are performing. . . . It is a stable and known environment for us to go to.”
Among the components being proven was a deployable operations facility, a large secure unit containing the classified computer servers and other systems and equipment to support UK F-35 operations. The facility was flown to Cyprus by four Boeing C-17 airlifters.
The UK now has 15 F-35s based in mainland Britain, following the arrival of aircraft to form a training unit, 207 Sqdn. on July 16. Credit: Sgt. Steve Buckley/Royal Air Force
Butcher says the footprint of F-35 deployments is scalable. In Cyprus the aircraft deployed with a spares pack, but the squadron also leaned on the wider F-35 global support system.
“The [global support] system now works as advertised,” says Butcher. “If we start working NATO operations in the future and you are flying with an F-35 partner, you want that ability to help each other out and keep each other operating.”
As the F-35s returned from Cyprus, two of the British aircraft visited the Italian Air Force’s F-35 base at Amendola, where they flew with F-35s from Italy and the U.S.
During that visit, which used virtually no logistics footprint, one of the aircraft required a spare that was available in Amendola’s base spares pack, and that part was made available in a “few hours,” says Butcher.
Squadron pilots, including Butcher, also flew a joint exercise with U.S. and Israeli F-35s during the deployment, with the F-35’s flying a prebriefed mission against simulated threats. The F-35s came out on top, notes Butcher.
While in Cyprus, the F-35s recorded their highest flying rate since they were moved to the UK, and the squadron flew 50% more missions than originally planned.
“We had cleared out a lot of scheduled maintenance for the first month [of the deployment], so we were able to hit the ground running,” says Butcher. “We had done a lot of research to understand what we needed to do to operate at range, and we are confident we got the formula.”
Once the exercise element of the deployment was complete, the F-35s went on to fly 16 sorties over Syria equipped with Raytheon Paveway IV precision guided bombs and AIM-120 advanced medium-range air-to-air missiles (Amraam) for self-defense, although no ordnance was dropped.
“We were very happy with how [the F-35] performed. . . . The big eyes and ears of the aircraft were wide open,” says Butcher.
“You are not just using a single sensor at a time; the aircraft systems are breaking down the information and delivering it to the pilot in good order,” he adds.
Since returning from Cyprus, the F-35s have begun using the new £550 million ($690 million) Project Anvil facilities built for the F-35 at their main operating base at Marham, England. These include training facilities, a refurbished runway and vertical landing pads. The arrival on July 16 of the additional six aircraft, including the UK’s newest aircraft, its 18th of the type, paves the way for the establishment of the operational conversion unit, 207 Sqdn. on Aug. 1. The first pilot courses are due to commence in September. Three of the 18 are based at Edwards AFB, California.
The arrival of 207 Sqdn.’s aircraft is representative of the growing F-35 presence on British soil.
In February, construction work began on new facilities to support U.S. Air Force F-35s at RAF Lakenheath, which will be home to 54 F-35s operated across two squadrons. The first F-35As will arrive in late 2021 and operate alongside two units flying the F-15E Strike Eagle and another flying the F-15C Eagle. The addition of the two F-35 units will grow Lakenheath’s 49th Fighter Wing by an additional 1,244 personnel, the first of which will begin arriving in early 2021.
Basing the F-35 at Lakenheath is a “great opportunity to reinforce our strategic relationship with the UK and in particular with the Royal Air Force at Marham,” says Gen. Jeffrey Harrigian, commander of the U.S. Air Force in Europe.
“Recent deployments [of the F-35] have reinforced how we are going to operate with our partners here [in Europe],” he tells Aviation Week. “So to be so close to our partners at Marham, we can not only work together from an operational perspective, but garner their lessons and share ours, and really focus on how we best interoperate to achieve the effects we are required to deliver.”
A year after their arrival to home shores, Britain’s Lockheed Martin F-35 operations are gathering pace.
The nine-strong fleet, joined by an additional six aircraft on July 16, were declared operational in January, then deployed overseas and performed their first operational missions over Syria.
The flights over Syria were the culmination of Exercise Lightning Dawn, which saw six of the B-model short-takeoff-and-landing versions of the F-35 sent to RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus, proving the ability to deploy the aircraft to a remote location away from the normal logistics chain.
The UK also sent a deployable operations facility to support the Cyprus mission.
British F-35s flew 16 missions over Syria and Iraq as part of anti-Islamic State group mission.
“Lightning Dawn was a proof of concept,” says Wing Commander John Butcher, who is commanding the Royal Air Force’s 617 Sqdn., the first British front line unit to fly the F-35.
“We were assessing the many elements that support Lightning at range, mission support systems as well as getting spares out to Akrotiri,” he says.
At Akrotiri the F-35s flew a range of air-to-air and air-to-ground exercises, “the whole gambit,” Butcher says, routinely flying four-ship training missions.
Flying from Cyprus, even while their counterparts in the Eurofighter Typhoon community were flying live missions, provided a “stable test” environment.
“It’s a little like a science experiment, you know what good looks like,” says Butcher, “If you go where other combat aircraft are operating, you can really do an assessment about how you are performing. . . . It is a stable and known environment for us to go to.”
Among the components being proven was a deployable operations facility, a large secure unit containing the classified computer servers and other systems and equipment to support UK F-35 operations. The facility was flown to Cyprus by four Boeing C-17 airlifters.
The UK now has 15 F-35s based in mainland Britain, following the arrival of aircraft to form a training unit, 207 Sqdn. on July 16. Credit: Sgt. Steve Buckley/Royal Air Force
Butcher says the footprint of F-35 deployments is scalable. In Cyprus the aircraft deployed with a spares pack, but the squadron also leaned on the wider F-35 global support system.
“The [global support] system now works as advertised,” says Butcher. “If we start working NATO operations in the future and you are flying with an F-35 partner, you want that ability to help each other out and keep each other operating.”
As the F-35s returned from Cyprus, two of the British aircraft visited the Italian Air Force’s F-35 base at Amendola, where they flew with F-35s from Italy and the U.S.
During that visit, which used virtually no logistics footprint, one of the aircraft required a spare that was available in Amendola’s base spares pack, and that part was made available in a “few hours,” says Butcher.
Squadron pilots, including Butcher, also flew a joint exercise with U.S. and Israeli F-35s during the deployment, with the F-35’s flying a prebriefed mission against simulated threats. The F-35s came out on top, notes Butcher.
While in Cyprus, the F-35s recorded their highest flying rate since they were moved to the UK, and the squadron flew 50% more missions than originally planned.
“We had cleared out a lot of scheduled maintenance for the first month [of the deployment], so we were able to hit the ground running,” says Butcher. “We had done a lot of research to understand what we needed to do to operate at range, and we are confident we got the formula.”
Once the exercise element of the deployment was complete, the F-35s went on to fly 16 sorties over Syria equipped with Raytheon Paveway IV precision guided bombs and AIM-120 advanced medium-range air-to-air missiles (Amraam) for self-defense, although no ordnance was dropped.
“We were very happy with how [the F-35] performed. . . . The big eyes and ears of the aircraft were wide open,” says Butcher.
“You are not just using a single sensor at a time; the aircraft systems are breaking down the information and delivering it to the pilot in good order,” he adds.
Since returning from Cyprus, the F-35s have begun using the new £550 million ($690 million) Project Anvil facilities built for the F-35 at their main operating base at Marham, England. These include training facilities, a refurbished runway and vertical landing pads. The arrival on July 16 of the additional six aircraft, including the UK’s newest aircraft, its 18th of the type, paves the way for the establishment of the operational conversion unit, 207 Sqdn. on Aug. 1. The first pilot courses are due to commence in September. Three of the 18 are based at Edwards AFB, California.
The arrival of 207 Sqdn.’s aircraft is representative of the growing F-35 presence on British soil.
In February, construction work began on new facilities to support U.S. Air Force F-35s at RAF Lakenheath, which will be home to 54 F-35s operated across two squadrons. The first F-35As will arrive in late 2021 and operate alongside two units flying the F-15E Strike Eagle and another flying the F-15C Eagle. The addition of the two F-35 units will grow Lakenheath’s 49th Fighter Wing by an additional 1,244 personnel, the first of which will begin arriving in early 2021.
Basing the F-35 at Lakenheath is a “great opportunity to reinforce our strategic relationship with the UK and in particular with the Royal Air Force at Marham,” says Gen. Jeffrey Harrigian, commander of the U.S. Air Force in Europe.
“Recent deployments [of the F-35] have reinforced how we are going to operate with our partners here [in Europe],” he tells Aviation Week. “So to be so close to our partners at Marham, we can not only work together from an operational perspective, but garner their lessons and share ours, and really focus on how we best interoperate to achieve the effects we are required to deliver.”
Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
When you deploy overseas you need to take a lot of ground support equipment, and other spares with you, and also the squadron ground crew and their baggage, and of course weapons. So 4 C17's is pretty normal.topman wrote:Four C-17s
Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
Thanks for that...bobp wrote:When you deploy overseas you need to take a lot of ground support equipment, and other spares with you, and also the squadron ground crew and their baggage, and of course weapons. So 4 C17's is pretty normal.topman wrote:Four C-17s
Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)
bobp ino lots of people post here and this is just for context but what your telling topman is his day job he may well have been on or worked in support of the deployment mentioned in the article.bobp wrote:When you deploy overseas you need to take a lot of ground support equipment, and other spares with you, and also the squadron ground crew and their baggage, and of course weapons. So 4 C17's is pretty normal.topman wrote:Four C-17s