Seems to be a concept currently in action:ArmChairCivvy wrote:and the counter (an operational concept, as opposed to leaving everything to "design"
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Seems to be a concept currently in action:ArmChairCivvy wrote:and the counter (an operational concept, as opposed to leaving everything to "design"
Argus isn't really a hangar forward design, though, the hangar is below the flight deck and she has a lift (originally two) to assist with moving aircraft to and from the hangar. I'm sure a Bay-type design could operate three or four spots, given sufficient deck space, but I believe the inefficiencies come about by having to move aircraft and equipment to and from the hangar at one end of the deck, rather than to lifts in, or at the edge of, the flight deck. This could be mitigated, obviously, by re-positioning hangars, adding lifts etc, etc, but that's not really what we were talking about with a Bay upgrade. Basically, stick with two landing spots and you can get the same operational tempo per spot as when operating a single spot, add more and operational tempo for each individual spot starts to degrade.Repulse wrote:Argus has 3 spots (being reduced from 4 when it was converted to be primarily a PCRS). Nice pick below, where there are 6 Sea Kings on deck:
Fair enough - perhaps it’s the best affordable / effective compromise design between a flattop and a Bay Class with hangar, that won’t result in the loss of the 2nd CVF.Caribbean wrote:Argus isn't really a hangar forward design, though, the hangar is below the flight deck and she has a lift (originally two) to assist with moving aircraft to and from the hangar.
Don't bother with the dock, build a modernised HMS Ocean, problem solved.Jake1992 wrote:What was suggested is for the Albion’s to be replace with 2 Dekdo style LHDs built to ocean standards. The fact that they’ll be operating LCUs would require them to come closer and not be able to stand off like Ocean did.
So spreading 20 helicopters across 5 platforms? This is the long standing comprise between distributing for additional resilience, or centralising for greater efficiency. When it comes to operating aircraft at sea it's a bloody difficult job (expensive), which is probably why the more efficient centralised option wins the world over.Jake1992 wrote:My thinking is each of the Albion’s and bays replaced 1 for 1 with 5 vessels
And how are you going to get your heavier equipment ashore in a first wave ? A Dekdo class won’t be able to carry many chinooks ( and won’t be able to maintain them below deck ) so that cuts what you can carry even more.shark bait wrote:Don't bother with the dock, build a modernised HMS Ocean, problem solved.Jake1992 wrote:What was suggested is for the Albion’s to be replace with 2 Dekdo style LHDs built to ocean standards. The fact that they’ll be operating LCUs would require them to come closer and not be able to stand off like Ocean did.
This is why Iv come to believe that with out current budget constraints 2 LPDs and 3 LSDs with good size hangers each ( LPD 6 merlin, LSD 3 merlin ) to make up for the lack of LPH / LHD / LHA is the best way to go for us.donald_of_tokyo wrote:But locating a precious "LPH" and helicopter airwing near shore is, just very very BAD idea.
Well dock in LHDs, if ever needed, is NOT for the 1st day assault, but for the logistic 2nd-wave landing. I understand even USN's ARG, LHD is carrying LSUs not LCAC, and LCACs are carried on LPD/LSDs. In other words, I understand LHDs are not considered to use their well-dock in the first day of landing. Quite reasonable idea.
1 LPH, 2 LPD and nothing else, could be the candidate solution to replace 1 active LPD and 3 Bay-class LSDs, I'm afraid.
For the logistic 2nd-wave landing, LCUs on LPDs can use the steel beaches of Point-class ships. Also, Point-class shall be modified to carry mexefloats, which is the main gear of the logistic 2nd-wave landing.
Although just an idea, to keep Bay-like ships, I am more inclined to use it as MCH mother ships. Say, replacing 12 MCMVs with 3 Bay-like ships, each carrying up to 6 MCM USVs. This fleet could be supported by 5 River B2, and 3 River B1, which can be modified to carry up to 2 MCM USVs each. (but this is another story).
Resilience 50-100% of the time (rqr'ed);shark bait wrote:spreading 20 helicopters across 5 platforms? This is the long standing comprise between distributing for additional resilience, or centralising for greater efficiency.
No need either; it belongs to a Marine Corps whose doctrine is a "coastal hook". This is prevalent in the "lesser" such forces, likeJake1992 wrote: A Dekdo class won’t be able to carry many chinooks ( and won’t be able to maintain them below deck )
Probably not, nor can it afford a real LPH anytime soon neither. I see an Argus replacement being an affordable and defendable option (the icing on the cake would be to buy two, arguing that the RN needs a 100% capability).shark bait wrote:Can the RN afford the cost of a 'distributed LPH'?
Tempest414 wrote:Keep it simple is the best way that is why for me RFA should be operating LPD/ LSD and the RN a LPH/ LHD
This problem with this way is as it stands we are very unlikely to get a new flat top at lest with out putting PoW at great risk. So it then comes down to if we can’t get 1 or 2 new flat tops whether that be and LPH / LHD / LHA how do we then give the amphibious force the require helo capacity it needs ?shark bait wrote:Whatever happened to keeping things simple?
Sure, it may be possible to distribute just as many helicopters around the fleet, but operational efficiency will suffer. Operating aircraft at sea, is incredibly complex. Amphibious assaults are incredibly complex tasks. There is no need to make the job more difficult, probably why no one does this.
I see it more as making more of what we have and replacing it - a.k.a. Argus replacement (or two )shark bait wrote:Whatever happened to keeping things simple?
Sure, it may be possible to distribute just as many helicopters around the fleet, but operational efficiency will suffer. Operating aircraft at sea, is incredibly complex. Amphibious assaults are incredibly complex tasks. There is no need to make the job more difficult, probably why no one does this.
I would agree a new improved Ocean say 210 meter by 36 meters keep the 4 davit and stern ramp set up and square up the flight deck at the bow to allow 8 spots this would give the UK the capability of having one strike carrier and one LPH at all timesshark bait wrote:In a decades time construction will need to start on a new assault ship, if the MOD can't fit it in the plan when with ten years of planning something is very wrong.
I would expect the next SDSR to launch a project to build a new flat top, to be delivered in the early 30s. A single flattop over that time span is realistic.
With the current budget and political out look on defence I just can’t see another flat top coming with out big risk to PoW.shark bait wrote:Making use of what we have means using the carriers.
This is acceptable in the short term because the UK don't have many F35, however one day there wont be the space for 10+ commando Merlin, and another deck will be required.
If the Admirals cart articulate the difference between a carrier and an LPH they shouldn't be in the job.Jake1992 wrote:With the current budget and political out look on defence I just can’t see another flat top coming with out big risk to PoW.
THANK YOU.shark bait wrote:Making use of what we have means using the carriers.
This is acceptable in the short term because the UK don't have many F35, however one day there wont be the space for 10+ commando Merlin, and another deck will be required.
It means using both CVFs AND an Argus replacement in supporting amphibious ops, it’s naive to think both would be available more than 60% of the time IMO.shark bait wrote:Making use of what we have means using the carriers.
This is acceptable in the short term because the UK don't have many F35, however one day there wont be the space for 10+ commando Merlin, and another deck will be required.
One carrier is big enough to fit all of the Navy's serviceable aircraft, so for the time being it's fine. However once the fast jet numbers start to rise space becomes an issue; 25 F35 + 10 ISTAR Merlin + 15 Commando Merlin + 2 Chinook is a jammed packed carrier.Defiance wrote:one carrier is not big enough to fit all of the toys people want to cram into her simultaneously
You present the case as if Argus is actually getting replaced.Repulse wrote:Argus replacement
Exactly, plus how much is it going to cost to operate PWLS as an LPH along with the T45/T26 screen tagging along, just to operate a handful of helicopters?Repulse wrote:It means using both CVFs AND an Argus replacement in supporting amphibious ops, it’s naive to think both would be available more than 60% of the time IMO.shark bait wrote:Making use of what we have means using the carriers.
This is acceptable in the short term because the UK don't have many F35, however one day there wont be the space for 10+ commando Merlin, and another deck will be required.