Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

Which Anti-Ship Missile Should be Selected for the Type 26?

Lockheed Martin LRASM
164
52%
Kongsberg NSM
78
25%
Boeing Harpoon Next Gen
44
14%
MBDA Exocet Blk III
21
7%
None (stick to guided ammo and FASGW from Helicopters)
8
3%
 
Total votes: 315

Jake1992
Senior Member
Posts: 2006
Joined: 28 Aug 2016, 22:35
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Jake1992 »

jonas wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:
It’s starting to make even more sense for us to move away from the mushrooms and go with ExLS on both the T26 and T31
Has there not yet been any decision taken on what type of silo will be used for CAMM, in regards to the T26 in particular.
The first 3 that have been ordered are using 48 mushroom cells 24 in front of the Mk41s and 24 mid ship, with the ExLS we could fit all 48 CAMM mid ship free up the forward space for extra Mk41 if required.

It’s too late to change the first 3 now but the remaining 5 ( or more ) should be fitted with ExLS from the get go

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 6427
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Pitcairn Island

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

Do you have a source?
@LandSharkUK

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3954
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »


RetroSicotte
Retired Site Admin
Posts: 2657
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by RetroSicotte »

shark bait wrote:Do you have a source?
I think he meant "should" as in "I feel that" rather than "it's said that".

NickC
Donator
Posts: 1432
Joined: 01 Sep 2017, 14:20
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

NavalNews video interview with BAE Inc from SAS2019 on their Mk45 Mod 4/62 5"/127mm main gun with the Italian Leonardo Vulcano round.

Mk45 current ballistic ammo has a current max range of 13nm / ~24km, BAE Inc looked at various alternatives but went with the Vulcano as had the longest max range of ~90km / 48 nm, though comes at expense of lower payload. Vulcano uses GPS guidance so can be easily jammed/spoofed, looking at infra red.

Video has a clip of part of the Mk45 automated magazine in operation, T26 so far only buyer, presumably will be fitted to Hunter and CSC.

(BAE Inc licensed the Italian Leonardo Vulcano round in 2017 for use in AGS, following the USN cancellation of the LM LRLAP rocket round due to cost 'rocketing' to $1M per round for use in the Zumwalt BAE Inc AGS 155mm main gun, but USN looked at alternatives including Vulcano and decided not to make AGS operational).

From <https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/sa ... 55mm-guns/>

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7245
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

NickC wrote:NavalNews video interview with BAE Inc from SAS2019 on their Mk45 Mod 4/62 5"/127mm main gun with the Italian Leonardo Vulcano round.

Mk45 current ballistic ammo has a current max range of 13nm / ~24km, BAE Inc looked at various alternatives but went with the Vulcano as had the longest max range of ~90km / 48 nm, though comes at expense of lower payload. Vulcano uses GPS guidance so can be easily jammed/spoofed, looking at infra red.

Video has a clip of part of the Mk45 automated magazine in operation, T26 so far only buyer, presumably will be fitted to Hunter and CSC.

(BAE Inc licensed the Italian Leonardo Vulcano round in 2017 for use in AGS, following the USN cancellation of the LM LRLAP rocket round due to cost 'rocketing' to $1M per round for use in the Zumwalt BAE Inc AGS 155mm main gun, but USN looked at alternatives including Vulcano and decided not to make AGS operational).

From <https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/sa ... 55mm-guns/>
"easily spoofed" seems to be your words. IR & SAL is being looked at for moving targets, nothing to do with GPS.

NickC
Donator
Posts: 1432
Joined: 01 Sep 2017, 14:20
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

Ron5 wrote:
NickC wrote:NavalNews video interview with BAE Inc from SAS2019 on their Mk45 Mod 4/62 5"/127mm main gun with the Italian Leonardo Vulcano round.

Mk45 current ballistic ammo has a current max range of 13nm / ~24km, BAE Inc looked at various alternatives but went with the Vulcano as had the longest max range of ~90km / 48 nm, though comes at expense of lower payload. Vulcano uses GPS guidance so can be easily jammed/spoofed, looking at infra red.

Video has a clip of part of the Mk45 automated magazine in operation, T26 so far only buyer, presumably will be fitted to Hunter and CSC.

(BAE Inc licensed the Italian Leonardo Vulcano round in 2017 for use in AGS, following the USN cancellation of the LM LRLAP rocket round due to cost 'rocketing' to $1M per round for use in the Zumwalt BAE Inc AGS 155mm main gun, but USN looked at alternatives including Vulcano and decided not to make AGS operational).

From <https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/sa ... 55mm-guns/>
"easily spoofed" seems to be your words. IR & SAL is being looked at for moving targets, nothing to do with GPS.
Google, you can find numerous, hundreds of articles on ease with you can jam or spoof GPS.

Jamming GPS


USAF at their major Red Flag training exercises jam GPS to make conditions more realistic
See How USAF Aggressors Jam Civilian GPS Signals in Training at Nellis Air Force Base February 5, 2018

From <https://theaviationist.com/2018/02/05/s ... orce-base/>

It appears even ISIS can jam GPS ‘We’re down to the last few villages’: British air campaign in Syria faces new phase By: Sebastian Sprenger  August 25, 2018 "There is also occasional GPS jamming, said one weapons engineer, who, like most officials briefing reporters, spoke on condition of anonymity due to personal security. It happens irregularly — sometimes twice per day, sometimes with days in between — affecting the satellite-guided targeting of the Paveway bombs. When jammed, the pilots have the option to switch to the bombs' laser-guidance mechanism."

From <https://www.defensenews.com/global/mide ... new-phase/>

Spoofing GPS

BBC Study maps 'extensive Russian GPS spoofing' 2 April 2019
"Russian President Vladimir Putin has a bubble of spoofed GPS signals projected around him when he visits sensitive locations, a study suggests.
It involves the state using strong radio signals to drown out reliable navigation data, says non-profit C4ADS.
The report by the think tank documents almost 10,000 separate GPS spoofing incidents conducted by Russia.
Most incidents affected ships, said C4ADS, but spoofing was also seen around airports and other locations.

From <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-47786248>

Norway at odds with Russia over GPS jamming,  Mar 19, 2019
"Norway says it has electronic proof that Russian forces disrupted GPS signals during recent NATO exercises, and has demanded an explanation from its eastern neighbour, the Nordic country’s defence minister said on Monday (18 March)."

From <https://www.euractiv.com/section/defenc ... s-jamming/>

In response USAF has launched 2 of 10 of their new 3,880kg LM GPS III satellites which provide three times the accuracy and eight times current anti-jamming capabilities compared to current satellites, to be followed by 22 upgraded IIIFs, programme to be completed by 2034. The GPS Raytheon Next Generation Operational Control System (OCX), needed to enable the full range of the new GPS III capabilities is running four years late and over budget. The shortcoming is that in a great peer war GPS satellites would be among the first to be targeted by anti-satellite systems.

USN reinstated navigational training in 2016 with sextants, quantum positioning system in R&D as one possible GPS replacement.

That's why would expect the Vulcano using GPS round to be non-effective as Paveway in Syria when jammed, will be of interest to see when the new gen GPS III satellites come on line if a new gen jammers are as effective as the current ones, perhaps one of the reasons why USN did not pick Vulcano for the Zumwalt AGS 155mm gun.

Do not expect RN to fund Vulcano for T26 for similar reasons, with Mk45 5" using the US ballistic 70 lb shell limited to 13nm max range for NGFS, a longer range shell would be advantageous.

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7245
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Mixing in personal opinion with quotes from an authoritative article is intellectual dishonesty.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

NickC wrote:USN reinstated navigational training in 2016 with sextants, quantum positioning system in R&D as one possible GPS replacement.
... and the Brits are leading the way on the latter (for subs, to begin with, as they might have a slight sextant problem)
- apologies for not sticking to the "purist" T-26 header
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

NickC
Donator
Posts: 1432
Joined: 01 Sep 2017, 14:20
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

Ron5 wrote:Mixing in personal opinion with quotes from an authoritative article is intellectual dishonesty.
I do apologise as thought it would be self evident that highlighting a major defect in the product would not be part of the salesman's spiel.

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3954
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Interesting update on the Canadian Surface Combatant programme.

https://www.janes.com/article/88853/ful ... ead-cs19d1

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7245
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Interesting development in the FFG(X) program that might have T26 implications:

https://news.usni.org/2019/05/28/lockhe ... gx-contest

Repulse
Donator
Posts: 4579
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

Ron5, seems like T26 remains a remote outsider due to cost & size, with most fancying a FREMM variant.

Shame HMG/BAE hasn’t invested in a Frigate Factory as this expertise could have been sold on to the likes of the US and Canada. I’m going to regret saying this but may be having a shorter/lighter T26 version for the T31 could be a smart export move also...
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

Jake1992
Senior Member
Posts: 2006
Joined: 28 Aug 2016, 22:35
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Jake1992 »

Repulse wrote:Ron5, seems like T26 remains a remote outsider due to cost & size, with most fancying a FREMM variant.

Shame HMG/BAE hasn’t invested in a Frigate Factory as this expertise could have been sold on to the likes of the US and Canada. I’m going to regret saying this but may be having a shorter/lighter T26 version for the T31 could be a smart export move also...
Remember the T26 wasn’t the favourite in the other completions for a long time, I’m starting to think the US is coming round to the idea of an anglospheer frigate.

Iv been saying for a long time now that the T31 should be a shorter stripped down T26, say around the 130m mark a merlin flight deck not chinook and lose the mission bay for a dual use hanger mission space.
For me the T26 should be the base for a family of variants like the light frigate above and a stretched version to replace the T45s in at the 9000-10,000t range.

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 6427
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Pitcairn Island

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

Welcome news to hear LM Canada contracting Glasgow for the engineering work.
@LandSharkUK

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 6427
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Pitcairn Island

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

Ron5 wrote:Interesting development in the FFG(X) program that might have T26 implications
So LM aren't doing the competitive design stage, but that doesn't stop them bidding for the final build contract, and they could bid the T26. Is that right?
@LandSharkUK

RetroSicotte
Retired Site Admin
Posts: 2657
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by RetroSicotte »

shark bait wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Interesting development in the FFG(X) program that might have T26 implications
So LM aren't doing the competitive design stage, but that doesn't stop them bidding for the final build contract, and they could bid the T26. Is that right?
That is the case, as I am aware.

Interesting that FREMM has gotten this far with it.

But as always, never underestimate the "America First" procurement bias.

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7245
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

shark bait wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Interesting development in the FFG(X) program that might have T26 implications
So LM aren't doing the competitive design stage, but that doesn't stop them bidding for the final build contract, and they could bid the T26. Is that right?
Except they've very clearly said they just want to stay in the systems business for that program. But who knows for sure.

And no, the US is not in love with FREMM. that design has many issues.

User avatar
Halidon
Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 12 May 2015, 01:34
United States of America

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Halidon »

Agreed with Ron here: While there's nothing preventing them from changing their mind again, LM has stated rather flatly that they're not going to be lead on an FFG(X) anymore. That said, I don't think the announcement means much for T26 prospects one way or the other as LM wasn't well positioned to offer it here. LM is wedded to Fincantieri Marinette Marine and the LCS line, plus I don't think Fincantieri would have greenlit the idea of using FMM as the lead yard for a T26 bid.

Online
Jdam
Member
Posts: 922
Joined: 09 May 2015, 22:26
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Jdam »

RetroSicotte wrote:
shark bait wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Interesting development in the FFG(X) program that might have T26 implications
So LM aren't doing the competitive design stage, but that doesn't stop them bidding for the final build contract, and they could bid the T26. Is that right?
That is the case, as I am aware.

Interesting that FREMM has gotten this far with it.

But as always, never underestimate the "America First" procurement bias.
I've heard a few times that the design for the US frigate program must be in production, what does this mean with HMS Glasgow coming together in Glasgow, do it mean more than one built?

User avatar
Halidon
Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 12 May 2015, 01:34
United States of America

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Halidon »

Jdam wrote:
RetroSicotte wrote:
shark bait wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Interesting development in the FFG(X) program that might have T26 implications
So LM aren't doing the competitive design stage, but that doesn't stop them bidding for the final build contract, and they could bid the T26. Is that right?
That is the case, as I am aware.

Interesting that FREMM has gotten this far with it.

But as always, never underestimate the "America First" procurement bias.
I've heard a few times that the design for the US frigate program must be in production, what does this mean with HMS Glasgow coming together in Glasgow, do it mean more than one built?
The most recent language was:
The solicitation will require prospective offerors to propose an FFG(X) design based on an existing parent ship design that has been demonstrated at sea.
There's pressure out there to fudge that or tweak the language to allow T26 in when the final RFP is published later this year, but I haven't seen any clear indication that the idea has gained traction.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5550
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

For me it will come down to what the US Navy wants does it need a world class ASW frigate or a good work horse if the latter then they wont go for T-26 but if it wants a world class ASW frigate they will need to take along hard look at T-26 before pushing it out

RetroSicotte
Retired Site Admin
Posts: 2657
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by RetroSicotte »

Jdam wrote:I've heard a few times that the design for the US frigate program must be in production, what does this mean with HMS Glasgow coming together in Glasgow, do it mean more than one built?
Must be in service to get money from the US for the design phase.

The final draft phase may allow anything, it's just you'd have to pay for it out your own pocket to make the design.

User avatar
SKB
Senior Member
Posts: 7931
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:35
England

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by SKB »

How T26 is being built and assembled at BAE Clyde/Scotstoun:

1. Bow section is rolled out.
Image

2. Stern section rolled out and joined to bow section.
Image

3. Superstructure lifted and joined to top of bow section, making ship structurally complete.
Image

4. T26 is rolled onto a barge, which is then lowered into the Clyde.
Image

5. T26 is floated and drydocked for final fitting out stage.
Image

6. Ta-daa!
Image

(Photos sourced from Navy Lookout)

User avatar
Halidon
Member
Posts: 539
Joined: 12 May 2015, 01:34
United States of America

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Halidon »

Is the superstructure built in the same shed, another, or outside?

Post Reply