Frenchie wrote:It is not right to advertise for vehicles of its own country
We know
... but this is like the Wimbledon (and the Scots don't turn out any AFVs )
Frenchie wrote:It is not right to advertise for vehicles of its own country
Most ice cream trucks that have to work the east end of Glasgow may disagree.ArmChairCivvy wrote:... but this is like the Wimbledon (and the Scots don't turn out any AFVs )
Pretty much what I said back when. Foxhound was a known vehicle, in service, trained with, built in country, can be adapted in country, offers jobs, skills, future developments, exports and retains the industry, plus tax return on investment, and that JLTV was an unknown quantity that had yet to go through the process of development that almost every US project gains price on.Jake1992 wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/uklandpowe ... ramme/amp/
It’s a bit old now but is there any truth in the issues with JLTV ? If so and the price keeps rising like it has from $450k to $700k ( £550k odd ) per unit would it be worth reconsidering a UK option like Foxhound or others.
Foxhound single unit price is around £1m but when the initial 350 order is looked at the unit price went down to around £800k. With a much larger order of 2,500 plus IMO I could see the price drop much closer to that of the JLTV.
All in all when everything’s taken in to account in rising JLTV price, JLTV problems, Foxhound prise decrees due to larger order and wider UK benefits from UK build could it be time to reconsider ?
I can understand the logic at the beginning it was expected that the super sized US order ( up to 40,000 odd I believe ) would keep the price right down, this I can understand as it’s not the MOD job to keep industry going in this country but with the large increase in price and most likely further increase it starts to tip the logic back towards a UK built design.RetroSicotte wrote:Pretty much what I said back when. Foxhound was a known vehicle, in service, trained with, built in country, can be adapted in country, offers jobs, skills, future developments, exports and retains the industry, plus tax return on investment, and that JLTV was an unknown quantity that had yet to go through the process of development that almost every US project gains price on.Jake1992 wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/uklandpowe ... ramme/amp/
It’s a bit old now but is there any truth in the issues with JLTV ? If so and the price keeps rising like it has from $450k to $700k ( £550k odd ) per unit would it be worth reconsidering a UK option like Foxhound or others.
Foxhound single unit price is around £1m but when the initial 350 order is looked at the unit price went down to around £800k. With a much larger order of 2,500 plus IMO I could see the price drop much closer to that of the JLTV.
All in all when everything’s taken in to account in rising JLTV price, JLTV problems, Foxhound prise decrees due to larger order and wider UK benefits from UK build could it be time to reconsider ?
Yet again short term decisions to save pennies ultimately end up spending more in the long term.
My understanding was that the objective of this project was to replace all Panthers, Huskies, LR RWMIK, snatch LR, Pinzgauer and eventually Foxhounds. Yes they’ll be ordered in batches but the over all large order giving a continued build line would bring unit cost down compared to the small order and rush job of the UOR.ArmChairCivvy wrote:May be I've missed it, but the Batch2 MRVP (the bigger one)... is the selection still running?
- also the plan was to buy what is immediately needed (a hundred and a half; and about as many later)
and why would they - the limited number - be ordered in 'two halves'?Multi Role Vehicle — Protected (MRV-P) Troop Carrying Vehicle (TCV) and Future Protected Battlefield Ambulance (FPBFA)
But one would think it is their job to look at it and say "Okay, almost every single US project of this scale has gained X% after the process it has yet to do is done in the last Y many years, perhaps we should estimate that based on other major projects vs the KNOWN cost of Foxhound and make a decision based on that?"Jake1992 wrote:I can understand the logic at the beginning it was expected that the super sized US order ( up to 40,000 odd I believe ) would keep the price right down, this I can understand as it’s not the MOD job to keep industry going in this country
Foxhound will escalate further due to:Jake1992 wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/uklandpowe ... ramme/amp/
It’s a bit old now but is there any truth in the issues with JLTV ? If so and the price keeps rising like it has from $450k to $700k ( £550k odd ) per unit would it be worth reconsidering a UK option like Foxhound or others.
Foxhound single unit price is around £1m but when the initial 350 order is looked at the unit price went down to around £800k. With a much larger order of 2,500 plus IMO I could see the price drop much closer to that of the JLTV.
All in all when everything’s taken in to account in rising JLTV price, JLTV problems, Foxhound prise decrees due to larger order and wider UK benefits from UK build could it be time to reconsider ?
Completely agree hereRetroSicotte wrote:But one would think it is their job to look at it and say "Okay, almost every single US project of this scale has gained X% after the process it has yet to do is done in the last Y many years, perhaps we should estimate that based on other major projects vs the KNOWN cost of Foxhound and make a decision based on that?"Jake1992 wrote:I can understand the logic at the beginning it was expected that the super sized US order ( up to 40,000 odd I believe ) would keep the price right down, this I can understand as it’s not the MOD job to keep industry going in this country
It seems like they just optimistically assumed something that almost never happens would happen.
Ok so let look at cost then, Foxhound under a 350 order came in at around £800k per unit, if the costs of changes ( would this add cost since they will be made before build and not after ) and costs of setting up prediction line bring it back up to £1m per unit ( if production cost can’t be agree from treasury or DTI under a much more generous Saj )RunningStrong wrote:Foxhound will escalate further due to:Jake1992 wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/uklandpowe ... ramme/amp/
It’s a bit old now but is there any truth in the issues with JLTV ? If so and the price keeps rising like it has from $450k to $700k ( £550k odd ) per unit would it be worth reconsidering a UK option like Foxhound or others.
Foxhound single unit price is around £1m but when the initial 350 order is looked at the unit price went down to around £800k. With a much larger order of 2,500 plus IMO I could see the price drop much closer to that of the JLTV.
All in all when everything’s taken in to account in rising JLTV price, JLTV problems, Foxhound prise decrees due to larger order and wider UK benefits from UK build could it be time to reconsider ?
- The UOR fleet and build standard has to be upgraded to core standards
- The production line would need to be restarted at a new location
It is, but the question has been raised whether it has been designed for the 'last war' ie. an Iraq like scenario... and should the order quantities for formations that are optimised for a 'hot war' be scaled back, in favour of 'something else'. [Oh bugger; LJ already pretty much said that]Ron5 wrote:isn't the elephant in the room the fact that the american vehicle is much better and comes in more variants and options?
This is one reason I keep coming back to Foxhound as it’s modular design allows for an easier evolution path for different situations down the line.ArmChairCivvy wrote:It is, but the question has been raised whether it has been designed for the 'last war' ie. an Iraq like scenario... and should the order quantities for formations that are optimised for a 'hot war' be scaled back, in favour of 'something else'. [Oh bugger; LJ already pretty much said that]Ron5 wrote:isn't the elephant in the room the fact that the american vehicle is much better and comes in more variants and options?
- one option (that I have not previously seen) is the Javelin/ autocannon combo, last page (p.36) in Oct. issue of Desider
This is another reason to look at UK build, over the next few years we could see the exchange rate fluctuate quite abit before settling closer to $1.30 odd instead of the $1.50 odd previously expected IMO. UK build would shield us from a good portion of this.Ron5 wrote:JLTV is in production right now so costs are well understood. Exchange rates would be the biggest issue.
However isn't the elephant in the room the fact that the american vehicle is much better and comes in more variants and options?
Like... that our main formations have quite different needs. Standardisation at the back end is good, but JLTV is in the grey zone, between the direct fire zone and and the back end, protected by other formations.Lord Jim wrote: the size of the potential order. Maybe there will be a rethink after all.
My understanding is that if we buy JLTV we’ll likely be operating :Lord Jim wrote:One of the key drivers for the JLTV was for it to be more reliable and require less maintenance with the time between overhaul being far greater than the vehicles it will partially replace in the US Military. Yes when work is required it is more involved that its predecessors but you have to do t he work les often.
As for commonality, well it is the same as asking for the Boxer to have commonality with the Ajax. The possible UK fleet size really negates the need for any commonality, and as with all new vehicles including MBTs, deep maintenance is now usually carried out by the manufacturer on site, and spares etc are covered, at least initially, but the procurement contract.
Finally I wouldn't class the JLTV as a commercial vehicle. Yes it roots maybe there but it I a very different beast from a Ford F150, which is a bloody good pick up by the way and the biggest selling vehicle in the world, going by units built and sold.