Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Caribbean wrote:along with a number of SeaRam launchers
How many suitable spaces for a non-VLS hot-launch missile are there below the flight deck level?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Why not just add SeaCeptor? I shall push for CAMM and RAM.

SeaRAM is good, but it is the direct "rival" of CAMM. I understand CAMM is right between RAM and ESSM, making it unique. Compact enough to be comparable to RAM (this is why compact launcher is very important, not mushroom tubes), but with active radar homing and so-so range, can do "local-area air defense". As ESSM has grown to SM-1 level, and RAM is just an passive radar and IR homing missile, CAMM has a good space to "fight".

Lord Jim
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

But the RN know better, it has decided that the Carriers only need then minimum self defence capability as they will be escorted by state of the art escorts. All other navies have simply got it wrong in the opinion of the experts in the MoD.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

The only way the UK will increase the defence budget is if there is a peer level, nation on nation high intensity conflict which directly affects our national interests, nothing less. Of course by then it is too late but the Politicians will still have their pensions and dinner speech tours.

Poiuytrewq
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Lord Jim wrote:But the RN know better, it has decided that the Carriers only need then minimum self defence capability as they will be escorted by state of the art escorts. All other navies have simply got it wrong in the opinion of the experts in the MoD.
Obviously the fact that it's cheaper has nothing to do with it.... :D

Lord Jim
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

of course not, we have had very well paid experts assess all possible threats to back up our decision and no amount of scaremongering will make us change our policy.

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Old RN
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Old RN »

It is notable that Ark Royal (60-79) started life with significant self defense weapons (multiple twin 4.5 etc.) and ended her career with none.

Lord Jim
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

That is true, She and her half sister Eagle were fitted for Sea Cat but these were not fitted. The Armament was removed from the ships as it became obsolete, 4.5" guns and even stabilised, radar assisted 40mm were deemed ineffective against modern threats. Another major event that impacted the self defence fit of the carriers was when they were modified to angled flight decks which removed many of the original gun position, and others were removed to save weight.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Why not just add SeaCeptor? I shall push for CAMM and RAM.
For me and putting costs aside for a now I think CAMM should be fitted to all escorts and the two carriers like so

T45 should have 36 CAMM added to its 48 Aster missiles to give a load out of 84 Missiles + 2 Phalanx
T26 should keep its 48 CAMM load out + 2 Phalanx
T31 should have a 36 CAMM load out + 1 Phalanx
Carriers should have a 24 CAMM load out + 4 Phalanx

On top of this I still feel the RN should add 10 SeaRam units to the 50+ phalanx units it already has this would allow the Albion's , Bays , Forts/ SSS , Tankers and maybe the B2 Rivers to have a air defence missile system

seaspear
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by seaspear »

At the risk of going into fantasy why wouldn't the carrier escorts have the Aster 30 block 1 nt and Block 2 bmd

Lord Jim
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

If we adopted the Ex-LS both in its stand alone and Mk41 VLS insert we would drastically increase the density of Sea Ceptors carried on our vessels. The stand alone launchers could even be managed like we do out Phalanx having a pool of three cell launchers and space on various ships for them. There is more than enough space available on the Carriers for op to four of these that would give each up to 48 Sea Ceptor.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Caribbean »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:How many suitable spaces for a non-VLS hot-launch missile are there below the flight deck level?
Fair point - I don't know, but I would guess that scorching the paintwork might be a minor issue compared to failing to stop an incoming ASM
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Caribbean wrote: would guess that scorching the paintwork
Not to worry, I meant the opposite, that the RAM launchers hot efflux (not managed by any silo mechanism) can't be blowing across the flight deck, so it is a must to look for those other locations (and to let the paintwork 'suffer').
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

The back blast from RAM is no a real issue, just look where the Canadians have placed their Sea Ram units on their future T-26 variants.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote:just look where the Canadians have placed their Sea Ram units on their future T-26 variants.
How many aircraft/ rotorcraft and ground crew attending to them are in the way :) ?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)


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shark bait
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by shark bait »

Excellent, glad to see work to embed the USMC is progressing, the chances of seeing a 'full' Royal Navy carrier have skyrocketed.
@LandSharkUK

seaspear
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by seaspear »

Would the sm6 missile be a candidate for the type 45 to address a lack of surface to surface capacity ,having the ability of dual purpose it could present value

Poiuytrewq
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Confirmation.


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donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Very nice photo of French carrier CDG. It carries 30 Raffle M, 2 E2C, 1 NH90 and 1 Dauphin.

And I think it is very much crowded. Even if half of them can be stored in the hangar, deck handling will be complicated.

HMS QNLZ will carry 24 F35B and 12-15 Merlin, with a few Wildcat, I guess. Thanks to her large flight deck, the deck will not look this much crowded.


Little J
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Little J »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Very nice photo of French carrier CDG. It carries 30 Raffle M, 2 E2C, 1 NH90 and 1 Dauphin.

And I think it is very much crowded. Even if half of them can be stored in the hangar, deck handling will be complicated.

HMS QNLZ will carry 24 F35B and 12-15 Merlin, with a few Wildcat, I guess. Thanks to her large flight deck, the deck will not look this much crowded.
And we won't have to move everything around for take-offs and landings :D

ThunderPants
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by ThunderPants »

Seems Queen Liz it getting deployed??

The defence secretary also confirmed the Royal Navy's new aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth is being deployed to the Pacific region, where China has been involved in a dispute over territorial claims in the South China Sea.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47192232

Also talk in this article of converting 2 existing (container ferry) hulls into quick reaction ships!!

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Timmymagic »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Very nice photo of French carrier CDG. It carries 30 Raffle M, 2 E2C, 1 NH90 and 1 Dauphin.

And I think it is very much crowded. Even if half of them can be stored in the hangar, deck handling will be complicated.

HMS QNLZ will carry 24 F35B and 12-15 Merlin, with a few Wildcat, I guess. Thanks to her large flight deck, the deck will not look this much crowded.
I don't think we can fault the French for putting 30 Rafale onboard...but... the airgroup as a whole lets the cat out of the bag on the CdG's capabilities. Great for sitting off a third world nations coast and pounding them, but not much else.

2 E-2C - Rapidly getting out of date, first flight was 1973...France currently has 3 in total, unlikely all are actually serviceable. A USN carrier always has 4 onboard for a reason. If they can get 12 hours coverage per 24 hours I'd be surprised.

1 NH-90 - You need around 8 helos to do an effective ASW screen....the French just don't have the numbers of NH-90 in service (22 to date). Given the numbers of escorts they've had around CdG they'd be lucky to get 4-5 helos up on ASW duties, and even then they just don't have the capability or endurance that Merlin can provide.

1 Dauphin - This makes sense for HDS and Planeguard, cheap to operate compared to NH-90. RN should follow their lead and have a couple of cheap helos per QE class for HDS and Plane Guard, anything to reduce cost/usage of Merlin (not even Wildcat, something cheaper like AW109 with a hoist and FLIR turret).

Roberto
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Roberto »

Timmymagic wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:Very nice photo of French carrier CDG. It carries 30 Raffle M, 2 E2C, 1 NH90 and 1 Dauphin.

And I think it is very much crowded. Even if half of them can be stored in the hangar, deck handling will be complicated.

HMS QNLZ will carry 24 F35B and 12-15 Merlin, with a few Wildcat, I guess. Thanks to her large flight deck, the deck will not look this much crowded.
I don't think we can fault the French for putting 30 Rafale onboard...but... the airgroup as a whole lets the cat out of the bag on the CdG's capabilities. Great for sitting off a third world nations coast and pounding them, but not much else.

2 E-2C - Rapidly getting out of date, first flight was 1973...France currently has 3 in total, unlikely all are actually serviceable. A USN carrier always has 4 onboard for a reason. If they can get 12 hours coverage per 24 hours I'd be surprised.

1 NH-90 - You need around 8 helos to do an effective ASW screen....the French just don't have the numbers of NH-90 in service (22 to date). Given the numbers of escorts they've had around CdG they'd be lucky to get 4-5 helos up on ASW duties, and even then they just don't have the capability or endurance that Merlin can provide.

1 Dauphin - This makes sense for HDS and Planeguard, cheap to operate compared to NH-90. RN should follow their lead and have a couple of cheap helos per QE class for HDS and Plane Guard, anything to reduce cost/usage of Merlin (not even Wildcat, something cheaper like AW109 with a hoist and FLIR turret).
Timmymagic wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:Very nice photo of French carrier CDG. It carries 30 Raffle M, 2 E2C, 1 NH90 and 1 Dauphin.

And I think it is very much crowded. Even if half of them can be stored in the hangar, deck handling will be complicated.

HMS QNLZ will carry 24 F35B and 12-15 Merlin, with a few Wildcat, I guess. Thanks to her large flight deck, the deck will not look this much crowded.
I don't think we can fault the French for putting 30 Rafale onboard...but... the airgroup as a whole lets the cat out of the bag on the CdG's capabilities. Great for sitting off a third world nations coast and pounding them, but not much else.

2 E-2C - Rapidly getting out of date, first flight was 1973...France currently has 3 in total, unlikely all are actually serviceable. A USN carrier always has 4 onboard for a reason. If they can get 12 hours coverage per 24 hours I'd be surprised.

1 NH-90 - You need around 8 helos to do an effective ASW screen....the French just don't have the numbers of NH-90 in service (22 to date). Given the numbers of escorts they've had around CdG they'd be lucky to get 4-5 helos up on ASW duties, and even then they just don't have the capability or endurance that Merlin can provide.

1 Dauphin - This makes sense for HDS and Planeguard, cheap to operate compared to NH-90. RN should follow their lead and have a couple of cheap helos per QE class for HDS and Plane Guard, anything to reduce cost/usage of Merlin (not even Wildcat, something cheaper like AW109 with a hoist and FLIR turret).
Timmymagic wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:Very nice photo of French carrier CDG. It carries 30 Raffle M, 2 E2C, 1 NH90 and 1 Dauphin.

And I think it is very much crowded. Even if half of them can be stored in the hangar, deck handling will be complicated.

HMS QNLZ will carry 24 F35B and 12-15 Merlin, with a few Wildcat, I guess. Thanks to her large flight deck, the deck will not look this much crowded.
I don't think we can fault the French for putting 30 Rafale onboard...but... the airgroup as a whole lets the cat out of the bag on the CdG's capabilities. Great for sitting off a third world nations coast and pounding them, but not much else.

2 E-2C - Rapidly getting out of date, first flight was 1973...France currently has 3 in total, unlikely all are actually serviceable. A USN carrier always has 4 onboard for a reason. If they can get 12 hours coverage per 24 hours I'd be surprised.

1 NH-90 - You need around 8 helos to do an effective ASW screen....the French just don't have the numbers of NH-90 in service (22 to date). Given the numbers of escorts they've had around CdG they'd be lucky to get 4-5 helos up on ASW duties, and even then they just don't have the capability or endurance that Merlin can provide.

1 Dauphin - This makes sense for HDS and Planeguard, cheap to operate compared to NH-90. RN should follow their lead and have a couple of cheap helos per QE class for HDS and Plane Guard, anything to reduce cost/usage of Merlin (not even Wildcat, something cheaper like AW109 with a hoist and FLIR turret).

Roberto
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Roberto »

Think they are just showing off.
Jealous of all the publicity QE has been getting so decided to show what they can put to sea with right now, something the RN won't be able to do for quite a few years ro come.
Or they could simply be putting the crew through their paces.
I choose jealous...

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