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Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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The Armchair Soldier
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby The Armchair Soldier » 11 Jan 2019, 23:12

Timmymagic wrote:Pity there isn't a wide angle of this without the dais. Tornado, Typhoon T3, F-35 and Tempest mockup together...

some poor sod had to polish that floor....


Image

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 11 Jan 2019, 23:46

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Lord Jim wrote: But my point is still valid, the RAF really only has to worry about training personnel for forward as it should be backed up by industry at depth.

... and mine (,too)
- considering that "the industry" is mainly somewhere else when the F-35 overtakes the Tiffie as the backbone for the RAF fastjet force

topman wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:You're right, I keep forgetting depth is basically what was 2nd to 4th line whereas forward is what was 1st line. But my point is still valid, the RAF really only has to worry about training personnel for forward as it should be backed up by industry at depth.


don't forget that whoever they work for in depth they still need training and we don't pay that cost directly but it is something we need to understand the cost of.


I agree with both of the above, and brings into focus how much faith we have in the MoD's project management skills and how well funded these aspects are moving forward.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 12 Jan 2019, 04:57

I like that photo.

Forgetting the past (strike/ interdiction Tornado on the RHS and the undefined future on the LHS), what is the msg in the primary A2A platform shown with strike weapons and the primary strike platform shown with A2A weapons?
- that the pair, together, can do anything (we'll get there, to a balanced fleet, sometime in the '30s)
- and in the meantime, each - on their own - can do 'anything'?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 12 Jan 2019, 13:31

I think the MoD needs to be a bit careful regarding the increasing number of research projects it is funding. We need to do a certain amount but it seems that because we are where we are, the people at the top are becoming obsessed with finding some wonder systems that will make everything all right again. £100M here and another there soon mounts up. Think about it the funds of five such project would sort out the woes of the T-31 programme of spent there instead. So yes we need to continue to look to new technologies, but we mustn't start investing in every scheme that someone may suggest.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Simon82 » 12 Jan 2019, 13:48

Stormshadow certainly would have been a very big lump to hang under an F-35 wing! I believe that particular plan has been abandoned now though.

Would have been interesting to see one leaving the aircraft carrier’s ski jump carrying a pair of Stormshadow though. I guess SRVL would have been essential for returning with a load like that after an aborted mission!

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 12 Jan 2019, 16:44

Lord Jim wrote:o yes we need to continue to look to new technologies, but we mustn't start investing in every scheme that someone may suggest.


I think we may have got it right, for once, in that
- PYRAMID is a must have, so that the MoD can orchestrate the various tech initiatives (try out, test, slot in rather than "integrate" which has been famously expensive
- and the rest of the prgrm mainly carried at companies' risk.

Of course we don't have the break-down of the gvmnt part of the funding (nor the sum total, for all), but let's say this is the ideal picture drawn and 5-10 yrs down the road we can colour it
- or cross it over, if it proved not to be the case at all

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 14 Jan 2019, 18:04

Simon82 wrote:Stormshadow certainly would have been a very big lump to hang under an F-35 wing! I believe that particular plan has been abandoned now though.


Storm Shadow and Brimstone integration on F-35 were abandoned over 4 years ago. Makes sense as SPEAR can carry out the Brimstone mission, albeit its larger and more expensive. Storm Shadow is OOS by 2030 meaning that integration as part for F-35 block 4 would have given it a service live of 4-5 years max.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby shark bait » 15 Jan 2019, 08:29

and neither of those fit on the inside, so no real loss.
@LandSharkUK

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 15 Jan 2019, 09:31

shark bait wrote:so no real loss.

I agree. Considering what weapons will be integrated on our F-35s we should, however, stop listing them as CAS assets (just for the reason that they serve that purpose for the USMC).

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 15 Jan 2019, 13:08

The role the F-35B actually has with the UK Armed Forces is going to have an interesting journey of discovery. With the JHF it was easy as the role was basically the same for both the RAF and FAA, but with the F-35 the FAA is going to have different requirements compared to eh RAF, fleet aid defence for one. The training plan for aircrew is going to be a lot more varied and will it encompass all possible roles for will it concentrate on Carrier operations and the needs of the FAA?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 08 Feb 2019, 17:31


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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 08 Feb 2019, 18:13



Was it for $3 bn they could have got all the tech and the flying prototypes of PAK-FA (nothing was said about the "production order" for the twelve that are symbolically going to "enter service in Russia"
- the radar panel arrangement was quite interesting, may be we could ask ;) how well it worked
- not that they ever got to anywhere near flying their own spec (two-seater)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Pseudo » 08 Feb 2019, 19:12

ArmChairCivvy wrote:- the radar panel arrangement was quite interesting, may be we could ask ;) how well it worked

I prefer the SAAB repositionable swash-plate concept, if only for the "why hasn't anyone thought of this before?" seeming simplicity of it.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 08 Feb 2019, 19:48

Remember what the F-22 was supposed to come with regarding its radar, providing 360 degree coverage.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby inch » 08 Feb 2019, 19:49

Don't think the India thing going to be a runner anyway folks in all reality because India will try to extract too much for too little input or scoop all the tech and info and want everything for about 5percent input/ cash . think it's a lot better India partnering with France as they already have rafale ,a lot better for them tbh

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Lord Jim » 08 Feb 2019, 20:03

But they are still manufacturing the Jaguar and updating it with some help from BAe but mainly indigenous programmes..

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 08 Feb 2019, 20:06

Pseudo wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:- the radar panel arrangement was quite interesting, may be we could ask ;) how well it worked

I prefer the SAAB repositionable swash-plate concept, if only for the "why hasn't anyone thought of this before?" seeming simplicity of it.


https://sites.google.com/site/thetemple ... Radars.png

Check it out

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 08 Feb 2019, 20:10

As for Jaguar
Lord Jim wrote:mainly indigenous programmes..

they're not manufacturing it, but putting in a new (foreign) engine and Israeli avionics.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Pseudo » 08 Feb 2019, 20:38

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:- the radar panel arrangement was quite interesting, may be we could ask ;) how well it worked

I prefer the SAAB repositionable swash-plate concept, if only for the "why hasn't anyone thought of this before?" seeming simplicity of it.


https://sites.google.com/site/thetemple ... Radars.png

Check it out

Oh, I'm aware of the Su-57's radar. That graphic doesn't seem to contain the cheek-mounted X-band arrays just behind the main forward-looking array though. I just prefer the "simplicity" of the Swedish solution of saying "Why don't we just make the swashplate rotatable?" :)

I don't think it has the same coverage as the Russian solution, but it must be a lot lighter, which can only be a benefit in the air superiority role and it just has a certain elegance to it.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 08 Feb 2019, 23:05

Pseudo wrote:I prefer the SAAB repositionable swash-plate concept, if only for the "why hasn't anyone thought of this before?" seeming simplicity of it.


That would be the Selex repositionable swash plate. Typhoon's Captor-E radar (a much bigger, more powerful version of the Selex ES-05 in the Gripen E) has the same respositionable antenna, only far more capable. Mostly made in Glasgow (the old Marconi outfit).

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 08 Feb 2019, 23:08

inch wrote:Don't think the India thing going to be a runner anyway folks in all reality because India will try to extract too much for too little input or scoop all the tech and info and want everything for about 5percent input/ cash . think it's a lot better India partnering with France as they already have rafale ,a lot better for them tbh


Agreed. Partnering with India would be a nightmare, not sure if the French would want to go down that route again either....The US seemed to avoid it entirely with their P-8 deal.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Timmymagic » 09 Feb 2019, 00:11

This is the real prize....get Sweden and Italy onboard with Japan and we're in business.

https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/japan-t ... r-project/

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby Pseudo » 09 Feb 2019, 03:09

Timmymagic wrote:
Pseudo wrote:I prefer the SAAB repositionable swash-plate concept, if only for the "why hasn't anyone thought of this before?" seeming simplicity of it.


That would be the Selex repositionable swash plate. Typhoon's Captor-E radar (a much bigger, more powerful version of the Selex ES-05 in the Gripen E) has the same respositionable antenna, only far more capable. Mostly made in Glasgow (the old Marconi outfit).

I'd wondered whether Captor-E would adopt it due to the common heritage. Thanks for giving me some hope that has been. :)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 09 Feb 2019, 05:05

Timmymagic wrote:This is the real prize....get Sweden and Italy onboard with Japan and we're in business.

https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/japan-t ... r-project/

I agree. Two notable things in the text:
- 100 air-superiority fighters (another 100 has been added to the F-35 order; deemed to be needing A2A support by late '30s?)
- from outside the US, two companies responded, but only BAE is on the final list (the other one having been 'absorbed' into the Franco-German project. Dassault did not even go into the preliminaries.

"The program is expected to officially kick off this year in line with the Mid-Term Defense Program [...]Program is anticipated to take about 15 years."
- our Tempest/ Combat Air Strategy funding renews (?) in March; good timing for slicing out "the action"
- AND bringing in partners with funding

" Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI), the company that developed the X-2’s fuselage, is expected to take the lead in developing the F-3.

Japan has been looking for international partners to collaborate with MHI and various Japanese subcontractors "
- BAE offer for the fuselage components for F-35s built in Japan was not followed up
- I guess they did not want to prejudice the choice of partners for this "more fundamental round"

Notable as well that the $50bn budget was not enough for LM's Frankenplane (F22+F35), which has now been discounted as an option.
- -we will soon have spent £2 bn
Take a hundred, another 100 for Japan, 50 for Italy and 50 for Sweden (both will have strike planes in service as will the UK and Japan)
- - divide $53bn by 100 ;) and the programme budget becomes $ 159 bn
- - save a third through co-operation, and it will be... a cool $ 100 billion :) in total

So let's talk air-superiority (only):
"WASHINGTON — A next-generation air superiority jet for the U.S. Air Force, known by the service as Penetrating Counter Air, could cost about $300 million in 2018 dollars per plane, the Congressional Budget Office states in a new study."
AND
"The CBO estimates the Air Force will need 414 PCA aircraft to replace existing F-15C/Ds and F-22s, the Air Force’s current fighters geared toward air-to-air combat. It also surmises that the first aircraft will enter service in 2030"
makes a mere $ 124 bn (for 414 pieces)

Adjust 300/ 414 (quantities) times the 124 bn above, and:
the comparative cost comes out at $90 bn for the 300 a/c quantity
- for that 10% lower cost being ahead on the learning curve weighs in more than the economies of scale in making them
- but then again: both BAE and MHI have already reached an apprentice :) status in making stealth fighters, so I would weigh the risks of such a prgrm (in technology - as in reaching the desired performance, and of cost overruns) to be less :?: than in the Franco-German one

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby SW1 » 09 Feb 2019, 09:57


ArmChairCivvy wrote:


Was it for $3 bn they could have got all the tech and the flying prototypes of PAK-FA (nothing was said about the "production order" for the twelve that are symbolically going to "enter service in Russia"
- the radar panel arrangement was quite interesting, may be we could ask ;) how well it worked
- not that they ever got to anywhere near flying their own spec (two-seater)



The hawk is still produced in India as well. This is a lot like what the major primes boeing and airbus do, whenever they contract 1st tier supplier or indeed 2nd tier support for the major component design and build contracts (like wing to uk for example) they insert into the contract 25% has to go to a “low cost” supplier, historically India, Poland or China, this has been done for years and every time a bundle of crap comes back that require checking, markups, rework return and repeat all over again until eventually it’s quietly repatriated but no one ever see that in the accounts spread sheet. Has disaster written all over it.


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