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F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.

How do you feel about the F-35B for the RN and RAF? (2 votes per member)

GOOD choice for the Royal Navy
118
44%
BAD choice for the Royal Navy
10
4%
Uncertain (RN)
14
5%
GOOD choice for the Royal Air Force
48
18%
BAD choice for the Royal Air Force
36
14%
Uncertain (RAF)
40
15%
 
Total votes: 266

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 13 Jan 2019, 03:02

R686 wrote:Publishing achievements is a recruitment and funding tool


This is true, and there's only so many of them... therefore they will need to be carefully rationed, to avoid a 'drought'
- in this case The Tempest (Farnborough) announcement feel-good factor needed to be milked to the full, before it being forgotten due to the next announcement... they were stringed together in quite a clever way :thumbup:
- also, the decade long story culminating in the retirement of the Tornado (early, instead of 2024) was 'magically' turned into good news, by celebrating the life together with the birth of the new baby - there was 'the wedding' as well (Tempest tying in and together industry interests that cross borders - come Brexit :problem: ... or not :lol: )

Lord Jim
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 13 Jan 2019, 07:26

I wonder how much the MoD are paying BAe to borrow that plastic mock up the Def Sec keep dragging around as a prop for is PR exercises?

jimthelad
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby jimthelad » 13 Jan 2019, 22:32

Just saw this on SNAFU. If this is replicable in combat then it makes the tail slide and cobra manouver look tame.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby abc123 » 14 Jan 2019, 12:39

R686 wrote:
Scimitar54 wrote:If we cannot be bothered to publicise our own critical achievements in a timely fashion, someone may feel justified in thinking that we are behind in other things as well. Undermanned, Under-equipped, Underfunded. Perhaps Unready! I note that the MOD did not even claim that IOC (Land) had been achieved on time.
Too important to foul-up in the light of all the circumstances. Let us hope it is not +100 days (or worse) for IOC (Maritime). The critical aspect is that we should not have to hope.



Publishing achievements is a recruitment and funding tool, its there to primary to make us feel good and justify expenditure more so when we use the military for HADR etc, its primary concern is not to give your potential enemy your readiness composition of your forces



If they depend on what can learn from MoD press announcements and internet, then I dare to say that the UK has nothing to fear. :think:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Scimitar54
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Scimitar54 » 14 Jan 2019, 15:22

If you say that you are going to do something (achieve a critical timescale) then you damn well make sure that you tell EVERYONE that you have achieved it, or the malaise of "It does not matter, it's only" can set in for other things as well. It is ALL important and it is part of being disciplined. If the Secretary of State does not care about such, what else may he not care about. Did they achieve the target or not? We have still not been told. If you do not want to be measured against a target, then don't have one at all. If the RN (FAA) had been running the programme, I would have expected the IOC to have been achieved (and publicised) EARLY.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby R686 » 14 Jan 2019, 16:14

Scimitar54 wrote:If you say that you are going to do something (achieve a critical timescale) then you damn well make sure that you tell EVERYONE that you have achieved it, or the malaise of "It does not matter, it's only" can set in for other things as well. It is ALL important and it is part of being disciplined. If the Secretary of State does not care about such, what else may he not care about. Did they achieve the target or not? We have still not been told. If you do not want to be measured against a target, then don't have one at all. If the RN (FAA) had been running the programme, I would have expected the IOC to have been achieved (and publicised) EARLY.


crikey, if you set a target date and not everything goes to plan as most things do, so you either have to ignore problems or you can stand back take 5 revaluate work the problem then when it reaches its milestone you have a true capability

I know which I prefer :shh:

Scimitar54
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Scimitar54 » 14 Jan 2019, 18:30

If there has been a delay and their is a good reason for it, then that would be understandable. However, if you miss the target date and then don't mention either that the date was achieved, or a reason for any actual delay then the lasting impression is that there is no urgency, so it does not the matter. This is not so. As a milestone in Carrier Strike, it is urgent. How long has "the gap" been now? The programme has been carefully put together (not rushed) and all involved in it should get with the programme or Ship Out. It is not a matter of preference, but one of accuracy and transparency.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby downsizer » 14 Jan 2019, 19:43

Just because it was announced on a date when everyone (including the press) was back at work, doesn't mean it wasn't ready earlier. Jeez, the internet is full of tubes and swivel eyed idiots. :crazy: :roll:

Scimitar54
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Scimitar54 » 14 Jan 2019, 21:51

Perhaps they are all employed (or were once employed) by the MoD. Not wishing to insult anyone on here, but it is just NOT good enough.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby R686 » 15 Jan 2019, 04:26

I think it’s a storm in a teacup to be honest

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby bobp » 15 Jan 2019, 05:44

As we have no control over when the Government makes its announcements, can we not get this thread more on topic, as the current conversation is becoming somewhat tiresome.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 15 Jan 2019, 09:37

bobp wrote:thread more on topic


In want of a x-thread quoting facility (and I don't like playing 'mod), this discussion has gone away from Tempest, so let "it" be the seed corn :D ):

SPEAR can carry out the Brimstone mission, albeit its larger and more expensive. Storm Shadow is OOS by 2030 meaning that integration as part for F-35 block 4 would have given it a service live of 4-5 years max.


Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby shark bait » 15 Jan 2019, 08:29
and neither of those fit on the inside, so no real loss.
@LandSharkUK

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 15 Jan 2019, 09:31

shark bait wrote:
so no real loss.


I agree. Considering what weapons will be integrated on our F-35s we should, however, stop listing them as CAS assets (just for the reason that they serve that purpose for the USMC).

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby bobp » 15 Jan 2019, 10:26

jimthelad wrote:Just saw this on SNAFU. If this is replicable in combat then it makes the tail slide and cobra manouver look tame.



This should quieten those who say the F35 is not very maneuverable.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 15 Jan 2019, 12:02

Trump's outburst about destroying Turkey 'economically' may have as much with this to do as with Kurds (the piece is four days old, from Janes, and thus pre-dates the latest twitter war):

" Turkey would go ahead with the purchase of a Russian S-400 surface-to-air missile (SAM) battery under a USD2.5 billion deal, which includes an option for a second one, despite strong US opposition. Turkey will begin deploying S-400s in October.
Demir was confident Turkey would receive the first four of 100 F-35s in the autumn, despite US warning that Turkey risks expulsion from the US-led F-35 programme if it takes delivery of S-400s."
- a nice little contract from Russian supplier, to use the first 4 a/c in various simulated attacks, so as to optimise the S-400 radars & else for countering the stealth 8-)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby RetroSicotte » 15 Jan 2019, 20:09

https://hushkit.net/2019/01/15/intervie ... r-paratus/

Mostly stuff we've heard before, but note the British F-35B pilot stating:
"There is also potential for UK to procure the GAU-22/A Gun Pod if needs be"

In other words, the UK has not procured any guns for the F-35B. Cost cutting on the quiet...

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Gabriele » 15 Jan 2019, 20:29

For whatever reason, the gunpod was never supposed to be part of the british IOC. Procurement of the pods was left for later. Part of block IV, unless it is postponed further.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

Arma Pacis Fulcra.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 16 Jan 2019, 10:45

Gabriele wrote:For whatever reason, the gunpod was never supposed to be part of the british IOC. Procurement of the pods was left for later. Part of block IV, unless it is postponed further.


Why do I get the feeling this will be pushed back and back until we finally need them desperately...

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby RetroSicotte » 16 Jan 2019, 12:59

Timmymagic wrote:
Gabriele wrote:For whatever reason, the gunpod was never supposed to be part of the british IOC. Procurement of the pods was left for later. Part of block IV, unless it is postponed further.


Why do I get the feeling this will be pushed back and back until we finally need them desperately...

The Government only willing to actually purchase necessary things once servicemen start dying? Nooo, that'd never happen...

So yeah, you're bang on.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Timmymagic » 16 Jan 2019, 14:12

RetroSicotte wrote:The Government only willing to actually purchase necessary things once servicemen start dying? Nooo, that'd never happen...

So yeah, you're bang on.


Given the about turn on aircraft guns following experience in Iraq and Afghan you'd hope that the necessity for the lesson to be learned again would have gone....but...

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 16 Jan 2019, 18:01

Brings back memories of the fabled Aden25 pods that were supposed to go on the Harrier GR5/7s but never materialised.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 16 Jan 2019, 22:25

Lord Jim wrote:Brings back memories of the fabled Aden25


Four of those (no pods) on the Hunter ground-attack version... was it the Swiss who ordered them.
- we seem to be going backwards ;) ?

Simon82
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Simon82 » 16 Jan 2019, 22:49

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Four of those (no pods) on the Hunter ground-attack version... was it the Swiss who ordered them.
- we seem to be going backwards ?


Four 30 mm ADEN revolver cannon was the standard internal armament of most Hawker Hunter variants. Must be a contender for the most over-gunned fighter aircraft to actually see service. Was the original operational requirement to vaporise Russian bombers?!

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 16 Jan 2019, 23:49

Simon82 wrote:Four 30 mm ADEN revolver cannon was the standard internal armament of most Hawker Hunter variants.
Yes, the std pack came as one: https://web.archive.org/web/20171106185 ... /86040.jpg and was chosen for its compactness over the original design with four smaller Hispano Mark V 20-millimeter cannon, with two in the nose and one in each wing root, or alternatively two 30-millimeter Aden revolver-type cannon.
Lord Jim wrote:were supposed to go on the Harrier GR5/7s but never materialised.
It was the 25 mm version, with much higher muzzle velocity, that was cancelled, allegedly for weight problems. Why the old 30 mm work horse that existed in podded version was not used instead...?
- so perhaps the old memories of problems with podded guns is now holding the purchase for F-35s back? Let others mature it first (which would be a perfectly valid line of thinking).

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby downsizer » 17 Jan 2019, 08:45

Wasn’t cancelled for weight reasons.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 17 Jan 2019, 16:29

Hence the name Aden25. The clue in in the name.


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