UK Defence Forum

News, History, Discussions and Debates on UK Defence.

River Class (OPV) (RN)

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 1489
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
Location: England

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Caribbean » 30 Dec 2018, 12:17

Why the Archers and not the BF 20m Rhibs?What do you see as the advantage of one over the other?
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10163
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 30 Dec 2018, 12:26

Caribbean wrote:Why the Archers and not the BF 20m Rhibs?What do you see as the advantage of one over the other?


An Archer should turn back in these conditions


Incidentally, been in a RIB in the Caribbean, repeatedly climbing up walls of waves higher than the length of the RIB... I did think we would all die (and we did turn back)

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 1489
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
Location: England

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Caribbean » 30 Dec 2018, 12:59

ArmChairCivvy wrote:I must say that I thought we would have raided the Scot's fisheries protection fleet, for the cutter numbers

I left them out, because I have a feeling that the Scots gNats would get all upset about "the English stealing our ships". The ships themselves would be quite a nice addition to a UKCG.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 1489
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
Location: England

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Caribbean » 30 Dec 2018, 13:05

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Incidentally, been in a RIB in the Caribbean, repeatedly climbing up walls of waves higher than the length of the RIB... I did think we would all die (and we did turn back)

That looks.... bracing! The thing that I like about the BF RhIBs is that they were designed as safety boats for the North Sea rigs and are built to similar standards to lifeboats (self-righting, with autoclose hatches)
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 1206
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Location: France

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Tempest414 » 30 Dec 2018, 17:04

Caribbean wrote:Why the Archers and not the BF 20m Rhibs?What do you see as the advantage of one over the other?


the only thing is range 150 v 550 nm this said I would be happy for UKCG to have both

Online
User avatar
Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 1469
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
Location: United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 30 Dec 2018, 21:26

I like this UKCG idea, hopefully it will get some traction. Working alongside the RNLI would be key.

We are extremely fortunate to have a voluntary organisation such as the RNLI in the UK but I do believe that due to the RNLI's efficiency and professionalism HMG has not be allocating sufficient resources to the border agency and coastguard.

Hopefully things will now change.

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5744
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 30 Dec 2018, 21:31

The RLNI has nothing to do with a border agency.

The UK does not have an enforcement coastguard because the UK does not have a maritime border. That is all about to change however....
@LandSharkUK

SW1
Member
Posts: 723
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
Location: United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SW1 » 30 Dec 2018, 22:10

shark bait wrote:The RLNI has nothing to do with a border agency.

The UK does not have an enforcement coastguard because the UK does not have a maritime border. That is all about to change however....

[quote="shark bait"]

HM Coastguard has existed since 1822, the uk has had a martime border in that time, the coastguard is an emergency service and always has been.

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5744
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 30 Dec 2018, 22:11

Which is why I specifically used the term "enforcement coastguard"
@LandSharkUK

SW1
Member
Posts: 723
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
Location: United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SW1 » 30 Dec 2018, 22:19

And the uk hasn’t and doesn’t need an enforcement coastguard

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 1489
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
Location: England

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Caribbean » 30 Dec 2018, 22:22

SW1 wrote:And the uk hasn’t and doesn’t need an enforcement coastguard

.... and, as @SB said, that's all about to change
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

SW1
Member
Posts: 723
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
Location: United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SW1 » 30 Dec 2018, 22:24

Caribbean wrote:
SW1 wrote:And the uk hasn’t and doesn’t need an enforcement coastguard

.... and, as @SB said, that's all about to change


Why is it about to change?

SDL
Member
Posts: 616
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 20:52
Location: United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SDL » 30 Dec 2018, 22:34

Brexit i guess

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5744
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 30 Dec 2018, 22:41

Exactly, for the first time in a long time the UK will have real boarders. The Irish border has grabbed all the headlines, but I guess the maritime boarder is equally as messy.
@LandSharkUK

SW1
Member
Posts: 723
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
Location: United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SW1 » 30 Dec 2018, 22:51

SDL

I assumed that’s what was being hinted at,

There still is a border today we still show a passport to leave the uk, use different currencies and have different taxes ect, the coastguard been around 150 years prior to us joining the EU.

These are illegal immigrant traveling thru multiple safe countries to get to the uk, there not leaving France because there being persecuted. How many agents of terror or agents of foreign powers are among there number. I would adopt the Australian approach to this sent them back.

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 1489
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
Location: England

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Caribbean » 30 Dec 2018, 22:54

SW1 wrote:Why is it about to change?

Not sure if you are getting the news wherever you are, but the leading edge of the migration issue is hitting our shores, Brexit is about to happen and the fisheries issue promises to become a little fraught. I won't bother with the longer-term stuff, but I believe that we are just seeing the start of the mass migration issues.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

SW1
Member
Posts: 723
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
Location: United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SW1 » 30 Dec 2018, 22:59

Caribbean wrote:
SW1 wrote:Why is it about to change?

Not sure if you are getting the news wherever you are, but the leading edge of the migration issue is hitting our shores, Brexit is about to happen and the fisheries issue promises to become a little fraught. I won't bother with the longer-term stuff, but I believe that we are just seeing the start of the mass migration issues.


The Calais jungles been there since 1999, people have been doing this since then down the channel tunnel, in lorries on boats. None of this new it’s been going on for decades, as has the fishing issues the cod wars starting in 1949.

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 1489
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
Location: England

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Caribbean » 30 Dec 2018, 23:08

SW1 wrote:the coastguard been around 150 years prior to us joining the EU

And for at least the first hundred years of their existence, they were an armed force (with their own cutters and mounted infantry for coastal patrol) that combined some or all of the functions of Customs and Excise (the "Renevue"), the Border force and the RN Auxiliary Reserve. All I'm suggesting is a modernised version of that.
Thanks for making my point for me (again)
SW1 wrote:The Calais jungles been there since 1999, people have been doing this since then down the channel tunnel, in lorries on boats.

Yup. And that will remain an issue for the Border Force at all the ferry ports and air terminals. They seem to be quite effective, so now the boat people are starting to try their luck, which is going to require physical assets on the water, to prevent tragedies like the ones happening in the Med and Agean.
SW1 wrote: None of this new it’s been going on for decades, as has the fishing issues the cod wars starting in 1949.

Right - so we just keep trucking along, responding to things in exactly the same way as we did in the past.

Yup - completely blinkered - it didn't work very well then, so of course it's going to work better now.

Good grief
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10163
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 30 Dec 2018, 23:13

SW1 wrote:HM Coastguard has existed since 1822
Don't know what they did until 1831, when "In 1831 the Coastguard took over the coastal policing, and from 1832-33 a number of violent events occured, culminating with a fight at Pevensey in 1833"

Until then the enforcement type of CG had operated under a different name, and in a mercantilist world it was not about stopping imports (mainly):
"in 1661 the illegal exporting of wool was made punishable by the death sentence, this meant that the smugglers started to arm themselves, and the only way they could be stopped was by the army.

Before 1671 the collection of Customs Duties was generally let out to private individuals. During 1671 Charles II created the the Board of Customs.

The Romney Marshes became the centre of smuggling and the records show that in the 1670's 20,000 packs of wool were sent to Calais annually. The smugglers were now building fast and armed ships to carry out their nocturnal runs.

During the 1680's the Revenue Officers were provided with Customs sloops to enable them to patrol the coasts, and catch the smugglers."

The story does not tell when, after 1831, the above came back and the role of the CG changed to an emergency service.

SW1
Member
Posts: 723
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
Location: United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SW1 » 30 Dec 2018, 23:24

Caribbean wrote:
SW1 wrote:the coastguard been around 150 years prior to us joining the EU

And for at least the first hundred years of their existence, they were an armed force (with their own cutters and mounted infantry for coastal patrol) that combined some or all of the functions of Customs and Excise (the "Renevue"), the Border force and the RN Auxiliary Reserve. All I'm suggesting is a modernised version of that.
Thanks for making my point for me (again)
SW1 wrote:The Calais jungles been there since 1999, people have been doing this since then down the channel tunnel, in lorries on boats.

Yup. And that will remain an issue for the Border Force at all the ferry ports and air terminals. They seem to be quite effective, so now the boat people are starting to try their luck, which is going to require physical assets on the water, to prevent tragedies like the ones happening in the Med and Agean.
SW1 wrote: None of this new it’s been going on for decades, as has the fishing issues the cod wars starting in 1949.

Right - so we just keep trucking along, responding to things in exactly the same way as we did in the past.

Yup - completely blinkered - it didn't work very well then, so of course it's going to work better now.

Good grief



Sorry just no, on so many levels, there is and has been clear distinction and roles between the coastguard and navy and police. There’s no reason to change and hyperbole around brexit isn’t one of them

The border force do the enforcing and have ships to do it no need to militarise the coastguard none.

‘The stated responsibilities of the Home Office's Border Force are the following

checking the immigration status of people arriving in and departing the UK
searching baggage, vehicles and cargo for illicit goods or illegal immigrants
patrolling the British coastline and searching vessels
gathering intelligencealerting the police and security services to people of interest
Border Force is responsible for immigration and customs at 140 rail, air and sea ports in the UK and western Europe, as well as thousands of smaller airstrips, ports and marinas.”

SW1
Member
Posts: 723
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
Location: United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SW1 » 30 Dec 2018, 23:29

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
SW1 wrote:HM Coastguard has existed since 1822
Don't know what they did until 1831, when "In 1831 the Coastguard took over the coastal policing, and from 1832-33 a number of violent events occured, culminating with a fight at Pevensey in 1833"

Until then the enforcement type of CG had operated under a different name, and in a mercantilist world it was not about stopping imports (mainly):
"in 1661 the illegal exporting of wool was made punishable by the death sentence, this meant that the smugglers started to arm themselves, and the only way they could be stopped was by the army.

Before 1671 the collection of Customs Duties was generally let out to private individuals. During 1671 Charles II created the the Board of Customs.

The Romney Marshes became the centre of smuggling and the records show that in the 1670's 20,000 packs of wool were sent to Calais annually. The smugglers were now building fast and armed ships to carry out their nocturnal runs.

During the 1680's the Revenue Officers were provided with Customs sloops to enable them to patrol the coasts, and catch the smugglers."

The story does not tell when, after 1831, the above came back and the role of the CG changed to an emergency service.


About 1923 it became purely a safety at sea organisation and was relieved of its task of stopping smuggling as it had been on a downward spiral since 1850.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10163
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 30 Dec 2018, 23:41

SW1 wrote:as well as thousands of smaller airstrips, ports and marinas.

and with the five cutters (2 in the Med, 1 in dock) these leak like a sieve

SW1 wrote: there is and has been clear distinction and roles between the coastguard and navy and police
OK, the army has dropped out of the picture, but there is no denying of the overlaps with
- customs
- SAR (RNLI's assets do not reach out as far as the UK's int'l obligations); helicopter contract a story on its own right
- RN in fisheries protection (running costs paid for by Defra)

So as for this
SW1 wrote:About 1923 it became purely a safety at sea organisation and was relieved of its task of stopping smuggling
the pendulum has been swinging back and forth before
- I'm not saying that some jobs would not get done (while some get done in a partial way), but what I am saying is that overlaps cost money. Some of that has been hidden by the dedication of RNLI volunteers and the generosity of the public towards the charity (and its important task; relative to which the Gvmnt grant is a paltry sum).

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 1489
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
Location: England

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Caribbean » 30 Dec 2018, 23:53

SW1 wrote:there is and has been clear distinction and roles between the coastguard and navy and police.

And there would continue to be. The Coastguard would simply assume all waterborne tasks and operate as a single cohesive force. UKBF, Police, Fisheries and HMRC would provide specialists teams as required for the tasking. The organisation would operate in a paramilitary fashion similar to the RFA, where they operate normally as a civilian organisation and under military discipline only in certain circumstances. In the UKCG case, they would operate normally as a Maritime Police force (with powers of arrest, authority to issue orders to civil craft and the use of force in specific and circumscribed situations), and only operate in a paramilitary manner when under RN or RM command.
SW1 wrote:There’s no reason to change and hyperbole around brexit isn’t one of them

Worse than blinkered - actually blind
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 1841
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
Location: United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby dmereifield » 30 Dec 2018, 23:57

It won't change if the WA goes through, fisheries access will be a condition of leaving the backstop and obtaining an FTA. The French have already made that clear, and the Dutch and Spanish will back them on that

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 1489
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
Location: England

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Caribbean » 31 Dec 2018, 00:03

dmereifield wrote:It won't change if the WA goes through, fisheries access will be a condition of leaving the backstop and obtaining an FTA. The French have already made that clear, and the Dutch and Spanish will back them on that

True, but I'm beginning to think that the choice is now between "no deal" and "withdraw Article 50". However, a week is a long time in politics, so there is time for a complete volte-face by various factions.

Drat - why did we have to leave it until now to experiment with Italian-style politics? :wtf:
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill


Return to “Royal Navy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: js44, Poiuytrewq and 22 guests