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FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Contains threads on British Army equipment of the past, present and future.
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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby RetroSicotte » 08 Dec 2018, 21:51

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/ur ... 853764608/

Challenger 2 Urban Kit Demonstrator

Image

Includes:
External Storage for Breaching Tools
External Storage for dismounted equipment
Turret mounted Mortar
Commanders GPMG and Loaders HMG
Enhanced Situation Awareness (Fixed Cameras, and Panoramic 360 Thermal)
Barrel cameras to see left and right at junctions without exposing the platform
Camera Feeds streamed to Dismounts Soldier Systems

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby Gabriele » 08 Dec 2018, 21:54

Turret mounted Mortar


Israelis never let go of the 60mm mortar in the turret... it is even in the Namer IFV turret. There was a time in which it was common in british armour too. In fact, i seem to remember that's where the Israelis picked up the habit, although i might be wrong.
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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 08 Dec 2018, 22:23

Gabriele wrote:There was a time in which it was common in british armour too. In fact, i seem to remember that's where the Israelis picked up the habit, although i might be wrong


The killer-diller part of the Israeli armoured force in Sinai in 1967 was made in Britain (with guns accurate at long range). Despite the success (61 tanks lost vs. 700 lost in action, many more I presume in other ways, just like in Iraq) and 300 KIA (vs. 12.000), the price was very high in dead tank commanders.
- reason 1: optics were not what they are today, so head out of the hatch
- reason 2: when you stop, the crew can do the 'stuff' under armour, but the commander is 'surplus' and the smoke & illum "mortars" on the outside were replenished by them
... ever since the mortars (now looking more like mortars, too) have been operated, incl. reloading, mainly from under armour

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 08 Dec 2018, 22:28

BTW, isn't there only weeks left to the 2yr deadline and the "German" version of the British Ch2 has not been seen (yet)?
- Santa will pick one up, on his way to here from the North (Pole)?

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby mr.fred » 08 Dec 2018, 22:36

The British have had multi-barrelled smoke launchers (i.e. not a mortar) on AFVs since the Centurion. Comet was probably the last tank to have it fitted. Though apparently Sherman’s had something similar.

Not a bad idea though. With modern fire control, you could probably be pretty precise about where the bomb goes.

On the concept tank;
Lack of heads-out protection for the pintel mounts is a little concerning.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 09 Dec 2018, 00:22

mr.fred wrote:multi-barrelled smoke launchers (i.e. not a mortar)


Thank you, I was looking for the word for these 'stub' mortars https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steilfeue ... oerser.jpg

The good old days, when a caliber (a number) was the definition for a mortar (as opposed to 'guns') have long since passed :) : http://enacademic.com/pictures/enwiki/6 ... 0-1500.jpg
- why would I prefer a number?
- because dipping into linguistics, you tend to get too many different answers: "The word Mortar/Mörser goes back to the medieval age when they looked like a big, thick iron pot" as seen above (the same shape, but not size, as the bowl used to grind herbs and spice). They were restricted to high trajectory fire, and the term has stuck in the English language... luckily no more

Anyway, a launcher (in the age of missiles) is a good term: who would know that Hedgehog was a spigot mortar, whereas Squid (that replaced it) went back to a 'normal' mortar... Who cares :D as the Battle of the Atlantic was won
... now, back to the topic, as Advent does not seem to be working in bringing to the fore the Rheinmetall Chally2, perhaps we will need to wait until the 12 days of Christmas as after the birth of Christ the Magi, the three wise men only brought the prezzies on January 6. Will be an Epiphany! Regardless of whether Rheinmetall manages the deadline, or not that will happen.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby ~UNiOnJaCk~ » 12 Dec 2018, 14:59

Nicholas Drummond seems to be suggesting that the LEP now features a requirement for a new smoothbore gun???


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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 12 Dec 2018, 15:31

This "news of the day is that the Army is extending scope of the LEP to include a 120mm smoothbore. This likelymeans a new turret. Should be announced early in the new year."
was only an option, to be looked into (like APS et al)... and now seems to be firming into a rqrmnt?

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby RetroSicotte » 12 Dec 2018, 18:00

Begs the question...how? New turret has to come from somewhere, as there's no way a brand new turret is coming up for this, and single piece ammo can't fit in it right now.

Getting a Leopard's turret would be a janky solution. I'm sure the lower hull could be converted to carry single piece racks in addition to the Leo's 15 in the bustle, and its strongpoints on the front are higher rated than the Challenger 2's, but it also has an increased amount of weaker points too, mostly around the gunsight. And this assumes it's a 2A7 turret, anything from prior to the 2A6 would be a diabolically bad choice.

Leclerc has no-one in the running. Is General Dynamics paired with anyone? I had someone pitch them removing the bustle and adding the Meggitt to it. As he says:

"With Meggitt you have 3 options:
A - 4 man crew + autoloader + automated isolated magazine in bustle.
B - 4 man crew + automated isolated magazine in bustle.
C - New turret with 2 people (so 3 man crew in total) + autoloader + automated isolated magazine in bustle."


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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby Lord Jim » 12 Dec 2018, 20:34

Lets just beg the Americans of a hundred odd M1s under their overseas disaster aid budget as our procurement plans seem to qualify.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby Lord Jim » 29 Dec 2018, 16:22

Challenger2 upgrade if done by the user.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby RunningStrong » 29 Dec 2018, 18:13

The barrel mounted camera is an interesting concept and one that I think has value, but...

- I'd love to see how it withstands a few shots being so close to the muzzle
- It looks incredibly vulnerable to tree strikes et al in that location and mounting, which is something user is so often quick to point out themselves

I do like the dismounts (or not in CR2 case) display, especially when paired with a telescopic mast.

Ultimately, some nice ideas but not sure how many would stand up to their own scrutiny.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby Caribbean » 29 Dec 2018, 20:05

To be fair, these are lash-up from off-the-shelf components. If the idea has merit, then I'm sure that someone has a (suitably-priced) bespoke solution
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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby Lord Jim » 30 Dec 2018, 06:57

As pointed out, the Danes have already installed ruggedized cameras on their Leopard 2s when in Afghanistan, both at the end of the barrel and up top to aid the infantry. I am not saying every CR2 should be so equipped but along with other ideas like facilities to carry some of the infantry's kit as well as items such as ladders should be combined into a TES kit so that a number of CR2s can be equipped if a mission requires it. In the modern battlefield, AFVs and Infantry need to work as closely as possible, if not joined at the hip.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 30 Dec 2018, 09:59

Two years is almost up... I think zee Germans owe us at least some teaser piccies (will have to keep these pages readable through work place filter settings :) )

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby Lord Jim » 30 Dec 2018, 10:41

Imagine if the Germans turn up with a Leopard 2A6 and say we can sell you 150 of these remanufactured form refurbished Leopard 2s for what is in the budget for the CR2 CEP!

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 30 Dec 2018, 11:45

Lord Jim wrote:remanufactured form refurbished Leopard 2s for what is in the budget for the CR2 CEP


Poland got close to that for euro 5 mln a piece... what was the exchange rate again?

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby RetroSicotte » 04 Jan 2019, 15:46

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Poland got close to that for euro 5 mln a piece... what was the exchange rate again?

Poland got awful quality ex-2A4s that they absolutely regret buying though. Their Leo fleet is an absolute shambles of mismatching variants (they Germany didn't specify in the deal) that is costing them billions more just to get to a workable state. Wouldn't use theirs as a comparison.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby Pongoglo » 04 Jan 2019, 16:42

Lord Jim wrote:Challenger2 upgrade if done by the user.


Good to see the .50 Cal mounted up top alongside the GPMG. Usual fit on an M1 Abraham's but rarely seen on Chally 2.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 04 Jan 2019, 17:58

RetroSicotte wrote:Poland got awful quality ex-2A4s that they absolutely regret buying though. Their Leo fleet is an absolute shambles of mismatching variants [...] Wouldn't use theirs as a comparison.


OK, let's try this one:
" buy 100 Leopard 2A6NL external link main battle tanks, plus spare parts for 10 years, combat simulators, maintenance simulators, special tools and testing equipment, and ammunition. At EUR 200 million, that’s less than EUR 2 million per tank."
- I guess they swapped out the radio kit, and that was that
- ten years of spares and things that go 'bang' with the deal

The special versions were kept back, and the buyer had to make do with some Leo1s (v good, but as the deal was not as much of a steal than the above... it has been kept :silent: )

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby Gabriele » 04 Jan 2019, 20:26

Soldier magazine notes that the 60mm mortar can be operated from inside the turret. Cool, but i'm guessing that's while it is loaded, then someone has to reload from outside for obvious reasons.
Wonder how difficult it would be to retrofit the mortar that the israeli Merkava uses, which is breech loaded from inside.
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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby Pongoglo » 04 Jan 2019, 21:00

Gabriele wrote:Soldier magazine notes that the 60mm mortar can be operated from inside the turret. Cool, but i'm guessing that's while it is loaded, then someone has to reload from outside for obvious reasons.
Wonder how difficult it would be to retrofit the mortar that the israeli Merkava uses, which is breech loaded from inside.


I'm sorry, I still cannot see the mortar - where? All I can see are the standard smoke dischargers that have always been there and have been fitted to every Brit AFV since Centurion was a rank not a tank? :-)

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby Gabriele » 04 Jan 2019, 21:08

My Sarcasm Support Measures are not sure whether you are being serious or not. Anyway, the mortar is installed on the front of the turret, to the left of the gun. You can see it in many frames, but most clearly around 2:46, folded against the turret's glacis.
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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 08 Jan 2019, 06:04

I have not seen any change notice to this
"The 24-month Assessment Phase (AP) to determine the winning bidder for the British Army Challenger 2 main battle tank (MBT) Life Extension Programme (LEP) is due to be completed at the end of 2018." as summarised by Janes.

The two competitors were given real hardware (tanks) to play with, and we have only seen one (result).
- the sort of "easier" one as that consortium's edge is in using sensors already fielded to counter the obsolescense issues
- the other one [allegedly] is considering a bit more radical up-step... adapting a turret they have or are in the process of making for a next-gen Leo... have they given up? Or the MoD as per usual taking their time. They did say at the outset that 'the thinking hat' is likely to be 'on' for a half year or so ;)

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Postby Qwerty » 21 Jan 2019, 11:22

Breaking!

Rheinmettal and BAESystems to collaborate on Cr2 upgrade and MIV

https://www.rheinmetall.com/en/rheinmet ... _16512.php

https://www.baesystems.com/en-uk/articl ... nt-venture


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