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Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 18 Sep 2018, 18:13

dmereifield wrote:https://www.gov.uk/government/news/qata ... nto-action

Sale of 24 Typhoons (and 9 Hawks) to Qatar confirmed....


This is great news as there was some concern about when the first payment would be received, particularly as this single deal represented such a large percentage of the UK's export credit guarantees from central government.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby bobp » 18 Sep 2018, 21:21

Good news, also extra 3 Hawks that will help keep that line open a bit longer.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby shark bait » 19 Sep 2018, 07:58

Why do Qatar need their jets on finance?
@LandSharkUK

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 19 Sep 2018, 08:25

shark bait wrote:Why do Qatar need their jets on finance?


It is a good insurance against (the low likelihood of) sequestership occurring; simply stop "installments" and grab the assets (with a mountain of spares ;) )

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 19 Sep 2018, 12:30

shark bait wrote:Why do Qatar need their jets on finance?


It's called Export Credit Guarantees. Essentially the UK government will provide financial guarantees to companies who export large amounts so that if there are delays in payment, or cancellations they are protected from harm to a degree. They're pretty well assessed for risk beforehand and are hardly ever called upon, but they provide a lot of comfort for the stock market or finance houses. A lot are for larger contracts, particularly arms contracts where there may be significant costs up front before first payment is received. Yu can imagine that a lot of work has gone into the Qatari order already, before the first payment. Most big countries do it, they just call it different things...A lot of this has come about due to the Iranian Revolution in 1979, most western nations were affected by the cancellation or halting of colossal arms deals as a result.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 19 Sep 2018, 15:04

Timmymagic wrote:Export Credit Guarantees. Essentially the UK government will provide financial guarantees to companies who export large amounts so that if there are delays in payment, or cancellations they are protected from harm to a degree. They're pretty well assessed for risk beforehand


The last 20 years have left military kit exports as the last "free for all" as in Gvmnts being able to subsidise exports from their countries as they wish:
"Since 1999, country risk categories have been harmonized by the Arrangement and minimum premium rates have been allocated to the various risk categories. This is intended to ensure that competition takes place via pricing and the quality of the goods exported, and not in terms of how much support a state provides for its exporters.[http://www.oecd.org/tad/xcred/arrangement.htm] The Arrangement does not extend to exports of agricultural commodities or military equipment. A recent decision at the World Trade Organization (WTO) indicates that the use of officially supported export credits in agriculture is bound by WTO members' commitments with respect to subsidised agricultural exports"

In this case:
"Qatar’s purchase was supported by a 5 billion pound package of financing and insurance support provided by UK Export Finance, the UK government said in a statement. "
-from Reuters

I have no urge to check whether this is so (or just how the newspaper interpreted the chain of events):
BAE signs £5bn Qatar fighter sale after Liam Fox tells UKEF to back deal
https://www.telegraph.co.uk › Business

21 hours ago

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 07 Nov 2018, 13:42

Good news for Typhoon if it actually goes ahead. Although this protects the German production line, it will mean an awful lot of work for UK suppliers including BAE.


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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby RetroSicotte » 07 Nov 2018, 14:13

Can't see the tweet (silly work blocks) but if it's them going for it for the Luftwaffe then yes, it'd be great. Especially given the Saudi order looks like it's more unlikely now with pressure regarding political affiliations with them. (Regardless of whether you believe we should or shouldn't, there is defo some chance that it may not happen now depending on international reaction or pressure.)

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Gabriele » 07 Nov 2018, 14:19

Good news on one side; confirmation of just what a rip-off Tranche 1 is on the other.

And one goddamn third of the RAF fleet is made up of those unupgradeable expensive things.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 07 Nov 2018, 16:28

Gabriele wrote:a rip-off Tranche 1 is on the other


33 coming onto market from Germany; some from Austria. Spain? Italy?

F-16s are going to have some competition (in those countries that put air defence before anything else; that is quite a few?).

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 07 Nov 2018, 16:35

I wonder if Greece could be tempted, they were interested in the Typhoon before thing went down the pan and they need a good AD platform to really replace their Mirage 2000 at least.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 07 Nov 2018, 16:47

Lord Jim wrote:platform to really replace their Mirage 2000 at least.


Is it 25 yrs from the deal yet? It was a famous barter... e.g. tobacco shipments over that period were included. Of course, they forged the GNP accounts, joined and were flush with euros, for a while. But not anymore
- more tobacco, anyone?

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Gabriele » 07 Nov 2018, 17:19

33 coming onto market from Germany; some from Austria. Spain? Italy?


They have been pitched to everybody and their dog in these years. There's even been a report of Italy offering its own to Pakistan, of all places.
Nobody has ever seriously considered taking them up, and i wonder if a single one will ever be successfully sold.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 07 Nov 2018, 18:57

Gabriele wrote:Nobody has ever seriously considered taking them up, and i wonder if a single one will ever be successfully sold.


The problem is they cost a tonne of cash to fly and support. The T1's are still fantastically capable fighters, but if you've got the money for high end fighters you want multi role or you're making them yourself. The only sensible solution is what the RAF is doing....try and fly the wings off them whilst you've got them, burn those airframe hours up whilst minimising the use of the T2's and T3's. It's weird when everyone looks at F-35 concurrency as a problem, in comparison Typhoon is far worse.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Little J » 07 Nov 2018, 19:15

Lord Jim wrote:I wonder if Greece could be tempted, they were interested in the Typhoon before thing went down the pan and they need a good AD platform to really replace their Mirage 2000 at least.


Do the German's still own Greece? :shh: :shifty:

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 07 Nov 2018, 19:28

Timmymagic wrote:try and fly the wings off them whilst you've got them, burn those airframe hours [...] weird when everyone looks at F-35 concurrency as a problem, in comparison Typhoon is far worse.
Ohh-no! We.ve bought another T1 to get rid of :D ?

Little J wrote:Do the German's still own Greece? :shh:

No, but they took Akropolis and all the islands as collateral :silent:

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Lord Jim » 08 Nov 2018, 22:36

We have very few T-Birds left, the OCU mostly flies single seaters now along with sim training.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 19 Nov 2018, 03:42

A year old piece on Typhoon production (plus Captor-E trials) http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show- ... udges-2023

But with the glacial pace, both with Captor-E and Meteor integration (more Amraams being bought) an interesting thought came to me. With Super-Meteor (JNAAM) trials due to be done by the UK in 2023, and with the hard to read images of its loadout in internal bay of the F-35 (6 missiles?), helped by CTS so that all can be fired in one go without knocking each other out...
- CTS = Captive Trajectory Technology

...perhaps (?) we are only going to integrate this newer Meteor onto F-35s, bridge the capability with the already integrated Amraams and back them up with the longer ranged "old" Meteors, carried by the less stealthy Typhoons

In any case: thx go to Ares for posting the latest about JNAAM as at this end we hear nothing(?) about it

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby SW1 » 19 Nov 2018, 08:56

Meteor became available on typhoon this year with p2e upgrade.

Additional amraam being made available primarily to cover f35 or it wouldnt be doing much air defence work.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby Timmymagic » 19 Nov 2018, 09:49

ArmChairCivvy wrote:...perhaps (?) we are only going to integrate this newer Meteor onto F-35s, bridge the capability with the already integrated Amraams and back them up with the longer ranged "old" Meteors, carried by the less stealthy Typhoons


The Amraam D's will provide a 'long' range capability for F-35 as I doubt we'll see Meteor on F-35 until 2026. But it could also enhance the Typhoon T1's as well. What I can't find out is if the UK's Amraam C-5's are getting a re-life to take them out to 2030 and the Tranche 1 Typhoons retirement. There was talk of it, but I can't see if the Amraam D purchase has replaced it or if it is an additional buy. If it's additional its a good thing as the UK's medium range missile inventory is pretty low. The Amraam B's have long been retired (these were in very limited numbers anyway and had been ported over to Tornado F.3 then Typhoon from SHAR FA.2).

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 19 Nov 2018, 11:14

Timmymagic wrote:The Amraam D's will provide a 'long' range capability for F-35 as I doubt we'll see Meteor on F-35 until 2026.

I agree about (c.) 2026 as the new version of Meteor will only start testing in 2023 (our part of the deal with the Japanese).
- until then the 'old' Meteors on Typhoons will extend the reach over 'D's by about a third (exact figures classified)
- meaning that they can stand back from a fight that there stealthier partners are part of by 70-80 km and still be part of the same fight. Esp. as when the Meteors arrive to the near edge of the range (of both), they will be likely to have more manoeuvre energy left than the Amraams

Intrigued about CTS, a swarm of AESA homing missiles fired nearly at the same time. Very difficult to jam by anybody else than the target(s)


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