F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

[ArmChairCivvy]

on Germany's part the aim of the prgrm is the same as with ours: Typhoon replacement

Are you sure about that?

This is a context where one is left unsure about everything. Now, was that about us or Germany? As for us
"project is aimed as a replacement for the Typhoon, and would serve to complement the F-35 in future UK service. It’s unclear as to how this programme could impact the UK’s F-35 procurement numbers, but the new concept doesn’t appear to offer a short take-off and landing (STOVL) capability to permit operations from the Royal Navy’s new Queen Elizabeth-class carriers. Air Commodore Lic Taylor, the RAF’s Senior Responsible Officer for Combat Aircraft " and continued with the official line that the 138 number will not be affected?
- we will have the cake (F-35) and eat it, too (Tempest... what ever that will turn out to be)

[SW1]

ACC

I think we’ll see team tempest being involved in integrating lots of new things onto typhoon over the coming years the options only really limited by our imagination and derisking them prior to launching a brand new airframe. Typhoon is the main uk combat aircraft out to 2040 and will carry the bulk of the load. The primary airforce task is national air defence whatever replaces typhoon has to be able to do that as a minimum.

I think the official line is about as reliable as them saying we’ll order 12 type 45 and 13 type 26 frigates!!

[Ron5]

on Germany's part the aim of the prgrm is the same as with ours: Typhoon replacement

Are you sure about that?

This is a context where one is left unsure about everything. Now, was that about us or Germany? As for us
"project is aimed as a replacement for the Typhoon, and would serve to complement the F-35 in future UK service. It’s unclear as to how this programme could impact the UK’s F-35 procurement numbers, but the new concept doesn’t appear to offer a short take-off and landing (STOVL) capability to permit operations from the Royal Navy’s new Queen Elizabeth-class carriers. Air Commodore Lic Taylor, the RAF’s Senior Responsible Officer for Combat Aircraft " and continued with the official line that the 138 number will not be affected?
- we will have the cake (F-35) and eat it, too (Tempest... what ever that will turn out to be)

Are you being deliberately obtuse? I'm clearly asking you if you are sure about the German intentions.

[Scimitar54]

It won't stretch their budget in the least, to replace their 4 (working) Typhoons

[ArmChairCivvy]

Bearing in mind that
" France’s Armed Services Ministry had [early this year] said : “Today, the priority is that the Franco-German link be solid before starting to open it up to other partners.”
and that on Germany's part the aim of the prgrm is the same as with ours: Typhoon replacement

And if it all goes "tits up" either as a project or as for agreeing common enough requirements, then there is still Japan (and Sweden?) to partner with - and failing that?? Simply buy F-35A's which certainly will have made leaps in technology by then

OK, a temporary switch away from the UK F-35 vs. Tempest focus then.

Ron, I am sure that both (?) of us know that next-gen fighter projects are about high politics, and bearing that in mind the word "sure" does not come into it... until they have reached the point of being too expensive (and costly in other terms) to cancel.

Luftwaffe got their Tornado replacement preference (F-35) shot down in no time at all by the politicians. More Eurofighters (keeping the line open, with upgrade designs) means keeping the industrial groundwork for the Franco-German project in place, and even improving it. Have you got any sources that contradict these statements?

["] “After the election of Donald Trump, it is important that we are able, as Europeans, to organize independently,” declared the German Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen. “No one will solve Europe’s security problems for us. We must do so ourselves.”

In the same vein, France and Germany have unveiled an ambitious fighter jet program that would replace the Rafale and the Eurofighter within 20 years. The French and German ministries of defence met on April 5, 2018, to formalize this key move"

[Lord Jim]

For Germany any future programme to develop a new combat aircraft is more about retain their industrial base regarding aerospace than anything else. With the French it is ore about national pride close followed by maintain the industrial base. Both nations are skipping a generation or at least are planning to, which is a major gamble. Cost and other factors could see them produce a "European" F-35 but France in particular will basically write a blank cheque for the development of such a platform rather than purchase one from the US. How many they could actually afford to bring into service is another question.

[sunstersun]

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ic-451964/

[bobp]

Testing on the F35B was abandoned due to severe damage to the airframe. They were supposedly going to manufacture another test article but did not. To be fair the flight test and development aircraft are still flying after ten years and they have been heavily used.

[Ron5]

Ron, I am sure that both (?) of us know that next-gen fighter projects are about high politics, and bearing that in mind the word "sure" does not come into it... until they have reached the point of being too expensive (and costly in other terms) to cancel.

Ain't that the truth.

I was thinking the Germans wanted the new German-French aircraft to replace Tornado's but I wasn't 100% on that. Hence my question.

[SW1]

Yeah the f35 is just doing the number of equivalent flight hours in the fatigue rigs that european a/c has been tested too for years eg 3 to 1. US a/c tend to do 2 to 1.

Bobp correct the f35b fatigue issues are a real issue. F35b testing remains suspended as there’s so many repairs to the test article it no longer bears any resemblance to flying aircraft. Flight test airframes are low hours airframes.

[SW1]

Germanys issue with tornado replacement revolves around the nuclear mission. Tornado carries out the NATO role with us b61. The Germans wish to continue this role. The Americans are being difficult with the integration process for typhoon which will require Germany to pay a few quid, the Americans would prefer the Germans to buy a us product for the role.

The Franco-German next generation combat aircraft is a replacement program for rafale and typhoon, as has been pointed out the Germans are only interested in workshare.

[sunstersun]

Report: Netherlands looking at nearly doubling the size of its planned F35 fleet from 37 to 67 jets

[Little J]

Good to hear, I am curious about why the (quite) drastic change and how they can afford the extra airframes.

Gives me hope that we'll change our minds about only getting 48

[ArmChairCivvy]

I was thinking the Germans wanted the new German-French aircraft to replace Tornado's but I wasn't 100% on that. Hence my question.

They would very much like that (the spec, as far as we know, has long-range penetration missions included), but the realistic time gap between the need and the "new" thing becoming available is 10 (+) years. Hence an interim solution, also as laying stepping stones for the new prgrm to become fully fledged
- for the latter, June saw the two respective defence ministries lay down the guidelines ("rails") for the actual requirements setting, with some conceptual design included. Dassault will lead (and as one could have guessed, the Germans got the same role for the new tank).

Germanys issue with tornado replacement revolves around the nuclear mission. Tornado carries out the NATO role with us b61.

- exactly that
- and if Germany can work a way round the American obstruction, the EF might become a realistic participant in the Belgian fighter competition, on the back of that (and without lifting the cost for the "small-ish" purchase too much)

[sunstersun]

Good to hear, I am curious about why the (quite) drastic change and how they can afford the extra airframes.

Gives me hope that we'll change our minds about only getting 48

Costs go down, capability goes up and it becomes politically possible to support expansion

People will hitch their wagon to importance and success whatever the preconceived notions of failure were.

[SW1]

You mean Holland many go back to there original numbers I say may because if I was being sinical I would say they may leak this story to appease Trump that they may buy more American equipment as they announce there percentage of GDP they spend more n defence will fall not rise to 2%.

[Ron5]

if Germany can work a way round the American obstruction

Give me a break.

The US provides these nuclear bombs to European nations for free. The bomb itself is kinda old and is being developed into a digital smart weapon. I don't think the F-35 will be qualified for the weapon for another few years. As for Typhoon, a couple of months ago, Germany, for the first time, asked the US about fitting the weapon to their Typhoons. An answer is being prepared.

What effing US obstruction? Is that the free use of an US weapon? or the wait for a new version? or the scheduling of the F-35 qualification? or the wait for a reply to the German request?

[bobp]

I am told that the UK has now formally accepted its 16th F35B into service. It was announced at the opening of the RR Lift Works site in Bristol.

[Lord Jim]

I wonder if at some point in the future the RAF might re acquire a nuclear role, if for example a longer range Storm Shadow successor was able to carry such a warhead.

[SW1]

I wonder if at some point in the future the RAF might re acquire a nuclear role, if for example a longer range Storm Shadow successor was able to carry such a warhead.

I think we would have to see a serious and prolonged deterioration in relations with Russia for that to happen.

[Timmymagic]

What effing US obstruction? Is that the free use of an US weapon? or the wait for a new version? or the scheduling of the F-35 qualification? or the wait for a reply to the German request?

I think the US is being rather generous to say the least. I don't think they would have an objection to Typhoon being qualified for B-61. But the delay to do so is probably rather more prosaic. The entire B-61 stockpile is being upgraded to a new single standard that is still under testing for USAF platforms. There isn't much point in integrating B-61 with Typhoon right now if the new version will arrive in the next couple of years. May as well do the integration effort with the weapon that would actually be carried for the next 20 years.

[sunstersun]

Germany is being very unreasonable here. They could have asked about the integration a long time ago, but they didn't.

Coulda been done by now really. Just more military irresponsibility that plagues the German military. Next they're going to sacrifice capability and up costs(not buy the F-35) because USA can't do nuclear sharing on the typhoon, military and industrial sovereignty, and Germany is anti science/nuclear and thus they withdraw or cripple the nuclear sharing agreement, and USA looks like the bad guy.

blah blah blah, think of these problems fucking earlier so they don't bite the thing that really matters.

Military strength...

[Lord Jim]

Germany has gone for a core member of NATO to a sideshow since the end of the Cold War and any increases in size and capability are mainly for PR purposes with little real substance. Their Politicians don't want to spend the money or commit their troops to actually fight.

[sunstersun]

The money is a giant problem, but the politics is much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much more problematic than money.

Clausewitz theories on war - war is a politics by other means rings true here.

Fundamentally at the core of a military is the people. In a democracy, people determine public policy. What do I mean by this? Let's say the super pragmatic decision of purchasing the F-35 over the Typhoon to replace the Tornados.

1) The F-35 is a strike aircraft, it's at least 8-10 times(I'm being conservative) more effective than the Typhoon in penetration attacks.
2) The F-35 is a much better aircraft, that's costs are actually lower if you really dive into it.
3) The spares problem Germany always has? Instantly solved. There's literally no way you could fuck up the logistics of the F-35 supply chain anywhere near as bad as Germany did with their Typhoons.
4) Built to last to 2070(2080 Germany time) while Typhoons are supposed to be phased out by 2040.
5) If I'm going to be honest here, the Typhoon is a good, not great jet. It's too expensive, it's still lacking the AESA radar, many key A2G capabilities. The Rafale has been shown to be a better plane in two international competitions especially with the supporting evidence. Obviously, it's the be all end all, but it's pretty much a guarantee the Typhoon has a shorter shelf life than the Rafale.
6) Turkey's withdrawing, Germany's entering. This addresses that industrial concern issue Germany has.
7) Germany is desperately needing of bigger pools of shared equipment or else their military is never EVER going to be a serious threat again.
8) 5th generation experience and tech share is helpful in a sense for their Franco-German plane.
9) NO SCREWUPS WITH NUKE SHARING EITHER.
10) Could placate Trump for trade tensions.

So, this is probably a very summed up version of what the Germany generals and military guys who actually want to win a war are presenting Merkel.

But, the German population does not give a fuck about the military except they really care about how they get industrial share and sell weapons(to be fair they do get upset when they're used wrong)

Even without Trump making it political suicide for Merkel to pick the F-35, the debate would be fierce. Like now it's 0% chance, but if it wasn't Trump I'd bet it would be a shitstorm.

And politicians that care about their ratings and reelection more than they care about the countries well being in the long term? Also known as like 99% of em, will gladly sacrifice an insignificant issue to the public over the potential benefits of a better military, more cohesive military alliance.

Any semi-competent country could do better and procuring arms. And it starts with the public, the politicians and the culture. They simply are willing to let it rot to nothing and think that's okay.

Just think this one decision, but for everything and don't get me started on German inefficiency at bureaucracy.

endrant

[ArmChairCivvy]

still lacking the AESA radar

Lacking it and the AESA not being in service are two different thing (... that thing that makes the world go round )