Section Infantry Weapons

Contains threads on British Army equipment of the past, present and future.
benny14
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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by benny14 »

jimthelad wrote:Yes and yes but there are still alot of the older systems lurking.
Any idea how many NLAWs we have and how they are distributed? How many per battalion, company, platoon etc.

jimthelad
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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by jimthelad »

Sorry, no!

mr.fred
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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by mr.fred »

benny14 wrote: Any idea how many NLAWs we have and how they are distributed? How many per battalion, company, platoon etc.
I would imagine that the issue would depend on the scenario and logistics availability, much like any other disposable one-shot weapon. Anything between and including two per soldier and none at all.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

What? Just two... that's for wimps

Except if you count on being "disturbed" while trying to fire your one-shot weapon, like this guy:
https://funnyjunk.com/Pointblankhits+gu ... 598347/110
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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by Lord Jim »

benny14 wrote:
jimthelad wrote:Yes and yes but there are still alot of the older systems lurking.
Any idea how many NLAWs we have and how they are distributed? How many per battalion, company, platoon etc.
Why would you want that level of detail? Mind you it seems quite bulky, though not as much as the LAW80 so I wouldn't want to carry more than one.

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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by Timmymagic »

benny14 wrote:Any idea how many NLAWs we have and how they are distributed? How many per battalion, company, platoon etc.
The UK's order for NLAW was colossal. The requirement was for 20,000 rounds...

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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by Timmymagic »

jimthelad wrote:Yes and yes but there are still alot of the older systems lurking.
Like what? LAW80 is all gone isn't it, on safety grounds? Aren't the remaining M72 the newer LASM variant? The only other things I can think of are a tiny number of AT4 CS and Matador ASM (unless they've all gone into stores)

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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by benny14 »

Lord Jim wrote:Why would you want that level of detail? Mind you it seems quite bulky, though not as much as the LAW80 so I wouldn't want to carry more than one.
Because I want to know how much kick an Infantry battalion has against armour.

I saw that the contract might be around £400m, NLAW costs €25,000. So roughly 18,000 NLAWs, although most likely far far less with support and other costs tied in.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

As the US cavalry units have gone around Europe, on various joint exercises, there have been some interesting sights:
A section pouring out the back, of both host country and US wheeled APCs
- the US guys looking at every third infantryman carrying an anti-tank weapon
- saying that "you guys seem to be intent on fighting tanks"
Answer: Yes; and what is your OpFor going to bring to the party?

So much so that as those weapons are stored by the exit door, for easy handling, there might be one seat lost... and well worth it.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

benny14
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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by benny14 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:the US guys looking at every third infantryman carrying an anti-tank weapon
The US normally carry an AT4 per fireteam, so two per squad. Would make sense for the UK to give two NLAWs per section, one per team.

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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by mr.fred »

benny14 wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:the US guys looking at every third infantryman carrying an anti-tank weapon
The US normally carry an AT4 per fireteam, so two per squad. Would make sense for the UK to give two NLAWs per section, one per team.
Why would it?

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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by Caribbean »

Looks like a decision has been made. Hints that the CG may be making a return?
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/british ... n-systems/
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Gabriele
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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by Gabriele »

Contract award in theory expected by the end of the month. I understand the race was between CG and C90 Reusable only.
Of course, it could still get delayed or go tits up entirely so the mortar goes with nothing as replacement.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by Lord Jim »

Nothing will happen until after the MDP is completed and published. Going for the Carl Gustav M4 makes sense as does ditching the LSW but they will need to buy more Sharpshooters as a result. I understand why the Minimi is on the way out but it needs a replacement. The obvious one would be to adopt the Minimi Mk3, both by buying modification kits for our existing stock and new build to replace the old GPMG. It fires the 7.62x51 and has very nearly the same performance of the GPMG but is far lighter. I believe it can also use the additional kit used by the GPMG such as its Tri-pod.

Probably the cheapest and most effective thing the MoD can do to improve the capability of our Armed Forces is to ensure our infantry Platoons has the most firepower they can effectively carry into battle and enough consumables to stay inthe fight long enough to win. Yet historicaaly the British soldier has had the keast amount of immediate fire power avaialable when compared to both our allies and possible opponents, only partially rectified by hasty UORs. This current policy decision, though there is some logic behind it, is in truth another cost cutting exercise cover by a media campaign. When the balloon goes up again the UOR "Wish Lid" will be dug up and the cheque book used to fill the gaps again. We never learn.

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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by Gabriele »

A new order for 397 new L129A1 has already been firmed up, but i can't quite tell if they are enough because no one is sure how many were already available.
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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by RetroSicotte »

Gabriele wrote:A new order for 397 new L129A1 has already been firmed up, but i can't quite tell if they are enough because no one is sure how many were already available.
I recall seeing notes of 2,000 bought during Herrick, but not of anything since.

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Gabriele
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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by Gabriele »

It started with 447 or so, then i've seen figures ranging from 1500 to 2000.

Assuming one for each fireteam; so 6 per platoon; plus 1 as Sniper No 2 in each sniper pair; the requirement would be something like 1458 and 216 (i'm leaving out the 4 specialised infantry "battalions") plus some for Royal Marines and RAF Regiment and the training margin.

If they were 3000, arguably no new purchases would have been required. 2000 and some could be about right, i suppose.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by Lord Jim »

I didn't realise we had bought so many, I thought we had purchased a few hundred under a UOR for Afghanistan. Good news though and a rare case of a programme going right for once.

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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by ~UNiOnJaCk~ »

As for the minimi, i think we should take a look at what the Danes have done with the latest M60 iteration. From what i have heard they have been getting on very well with them. It's 7.62, it's lighter than the GPMG, surely it is the best compromise? There are other alternatives of course, but i think loosing the support weapon capability altogether is a big risk - unless there is something the planners know that we don't...

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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Lord Jim wrote:adopt the Minimi Mk3, both by buying modification kits for our existing stock and new build to replace the old GPMG. It fires the 7.62x51 and has very nearly the same performance of the GPMG but is far lighter. I believe it can also use the additional kit used by the GPMG such as its Tri-pod.
A Minimi firing a new intermediate round would be the ideal outcome in my view, especially if the Sharpshooter rifles could be converted to fire the same round. If the 7.62x51 case head dimensions were used as the basis for the new round and chamber pressures were maintained at 7.62x51 levels it should make for a pretty simple conversion as the bolt head could be retained.

Something in 6.5mm or 7mm would be ideal and would lose little in the way of energy or trajectory when compared to the 7.62x51 out to 600m or 800m.

Obviously introducing an intermediate round is a NATO decision but this would seem like an ideal time to do it.

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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by Lord Jim »

Obviously where the US goes with its quest for an intermediate round is key here, as the rest of NATO will follow. A lighter GPMG would be an initial step forward that could be taken before then. This is why I strongly believe the Mk3 Minimi should be given serious consideration and in fact the UK already has some. Given that the existing 5.56 Minimi can be converted to the 7.62 Mk3 and it can use many of the MAGs accessories the cost would be far less than a totally new weapon and would reduce the weight as seems to be one of the supposed criteria for the announced changes. However this last point does seem to be being used more as an excuse to remove kit or not replace it rather than being part of some true overall plan.

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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by Little J »

Replacing gpmg (maybe not all of them) with the mk.3 would appear to be the best option, if the L110's are still reusable there's a cost benefit (as apposed to just ditching them). Its 762 and 556 capable - so if the muppets in Whitehall change their minds (before the yanks choose NATO's next calibre) you can re-issue 556 again without to much fuss. Everyone's already trained on the L110's.

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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by mr.fred »

If the 5.56mm minimi is proven to be inaccurate, why would it be a good idea to replace the Mag with a Minimi in 7.62?
The Minimi isn’t as robust, as widely trained or as well known as the Mag. It is lighter but that comes at the cost of reliability, controllability and ability to sustain fire.

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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by Poiuytrewq »

mr.fred wrote:If the 5.56mm minimi is proven to be inaccurate, why would it be a good idea to replace the Mag with a Minimi in 7.62?
The Minimi isn’t as robust, as widely trained or as well known as the Mag. It is lighter but that comes at the cost of reliability, controllability and ability to sustain fire.
The key would be settling on a maximum of 2 types of ammunition, just as is the case now with 5.56 and 7.62 as any more than 2 types and it would end up a logistical nightmare.

Is it conceivable that a single round could be developed that would replace both the 5.56 and 7.62?

After all its not that long ago the 7.62 was doing everything.

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Re: Section infantry weapons

Post by mr.fred »

The answer to that question depends on what you want a unified cartridge to do.
You could almost certainly develop a single cartridge for infantry sections, but you may find that you would still want a heavier round for vehicle and tripod mounted weapons.
Equally, you could define an infantry combat round that covers all bases and find that you would like something a bit smaller and lighter for support troops whose primary role is not small arms engagement.
The whole mess changes somewhat depending on what the opposition is likely to carry - if your opponents are regularly wearing body armour, the balance changes.

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