Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

RetroSicotte wrote:Bear in mind that this missile is not just replacing UK/French anti-ship missiles, but is also intended to be the future land attack and air launched cruise missile to replace Storm Shadow/SCALP/Tomahawk as well. As such the program would still need to be carried on to replace Storm Shadow/SCALP at the very least.
"Why not buy from USA?", is the heart of my comment.
Cutting is easy, maintaining is difficult but doable, increasing is hellishly improbable.
Yes, that's why I am against cutting ASM. To say the truth, with Albions in danger of cut, keeping "13 frigates" may go into vain very soon. MOD faces 30B GBP gap for this 10 years. Then, how about the next 10 years? If "13" is important, of course, another option will be to make T31e as cheap as 200M GBP average (= equivalent to Floreal with inflation). By this, we can get 250M GBP free. T31e will be forced to sacrifice either the mission bay or CAMM (or CAMM FTR, like Floreal) or the main gun (like T22B1/2), but if "13" is important, that will also surely be an option.

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shark bait
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by shark bait »

Can't buy everything from the USA. A strong military needs a strong industry.
@LandSharkUK

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

shark bait wrote:Can't buy everything from the USA. A strong military needs a strong industry.
Investing the money (saved from cutting the ASM development) on Meteor and Spear3 and CAMM is not a way to make UK military industry stronger? I "think" these 3 has more hope than "UK built Land attack missile". For example, how many missiles UK and France will buy? Say, 200? USA will buy 2000-3000 of Tomahawk replacements. With 10 times more mass production, I am not surprised if the "cost per unit" is at least doubled.

On the other hand, Meteor, Spear3 and CAMM (including ASRAAM) can be ordered in number, nearly 1000 or so. Then the industry can enjoy the mass production, make them cheaper, much easier to export, and hence make UK military industry stronger. This is my point.

Because I am not a military market specialist, my assessment might be wrong. But, I just wanted to note that I am not proposing to weaken UK military industry.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Caribbean »

marktigger wrote:Serving admirals can't/won't say anything
Countries where the serving military get involved in politics tend to have a poor relationship with democracy. The last time the military got involved in politics in a big way in Britain was 1688. Lets keep it that way.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

marktigger
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by marktigger »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: and hence make UK military industry stronger.
MBDA is a European wide company who could take on the Big US defence companies and win. which is actually good for world wide defence procurement/development

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

marktigger wrote:MBDA is a European wide company who could take on the Big US defence companies and win. which is actually good for world wide defence procurement/development
No objection. My proposal to invest on Meteor, CAMM and Spear3 is along this line. My point is, "Europian land attack missile" will not be produced in number, which will make it quite expensive, and hence not competitive. See how SCALP was totally uncompetitive against Tomahawk.

ASM will be "so-so OK" to be sold, because Exocet was a great success. But NSM/JSM is doing good job already, and RBS15L is also good. The Anglo-Franco missile is way behind, which is completely different from the Exocet case, which was the top runner. I guess NSM/JSM will be the "next generation" top-sell European ASM.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by marktigger »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:
marktigger wrote:MBDA is a European wide company who could take on the Big US defence companies and win. which is actually good for world wide defence procurement/development
No objection. My proposal to invest on Meteor, CAMM and Spear3 is along this line. My point is, "Europian land attack missile" will not be produced in number, which will make it quite expensive, and hence not competitive. See how SCALP was totally uncompetitive against Tomahawk.

ASM will be "so-so OK" to be sold, because Exocet was a great success. But NSM/JSM is doing good job already, and RBS15L is also good. The Anglo-Franco missile is way behind, which is completely different from the Exocet case, which was the top runner. I guess NSM/JSM will be the "next generation" top-sell European ASM.
and could be next gen benchmark system

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Opinion3 »

It does seem the new missile has lots of fairly modern competitors, but being a cruise missile amongst other things it will get more actual purposeful use and as for its competitors the lead time is a decade after so it should be potentially using that technology and much much more.

Developing missiles is a success story, we need to sell better. That would come with integration efforts. but agree it looks more like MBDA's effort will be the next generation weapon...... we still need something in the meantime

as for losing a T31e. certainly would to keep the Bays, Albions etc.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by benny14 »

shark bait wrote:Need to get those things in place before we start considering advanced missiles.
Still better to have missiles that have a better chance of hitting and the option to go out at range.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by R686 »

call me a cynic but it seems you really want to win Sea 5000, I do wonder if using the same template across both will actually save money for both nations, all we have to do is get the canucks on board

https://www.pyneonline.com.au/media-cen ... r-for-navy

RetroSicotte
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by RetroSicotte »

It's a nice radar, would be interesting to see it on the ship. Giving batch 2 more A2A ability with it would be quite nice.

Outside of Type 31 having a massive skew in its planning, Type 26 batch 2 is the only one I can think of.

marktigger
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by marktigger »

having the next generation of frigates designed to take non UK systems like the Australian radar is the way ahead it makes it flexible for foreign sales

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Issues on Cutlass/Leander.

Based on existing ship, Khareef, it has a strong merit that many of the detailed design is already there. Extention and many modifications are needed, but the existing design will significantly reduce the design work-load, if it retains the original configuration as mush as possible.

Here, the point is its width.

Let's compare ANZAC and Khareef.
-------
Length 117m/99m
Width 14.8m/14.6m
Draught 4.35m/4.1m
FLD 3600 t/2700 t
Power 22500 kW (CODOG)/18200kW with 2 diesels (CODOE)
Speed 27 kts/25 kts
-------
Since Khareef has short range and endurance, adding ~20m of hull (say 15m amidship and 5 m astern (for Merlin-capable flight deck) to make it ~120m length is important. If we enlarge the beam-width too much, all of the internal design will need re-work, negating the "merit" of Khareef-based design. As (original) Leander B3 is 5% wider than B1/2, so may be we can "relatively easiliy" increase the width to 14.6*1.05 = 15.3m, but not more.

Thus, my expectation of Cutlass/Leander hull design is as follows:
-------
Length 119m
Width 15.3m
Draught 4.1m
FLD 3600 t
Power 18200kW (CODOE)
Speed 25 kts (longer hull will compensate wider beam).
-------
In short, similar to the ANZAC frigate. I'm not sure RN agree it is "~4000 t" (from RFI), but may be yes. But, anyway it is small.

Drawback of being "small" is less internal space. So, it must be associated with less equipments.

Luckely, T31e RFI's requirement is actually very flexible. For example, "Adaptable: Misstion bay and/or deck space for 2x ISO containers", latter is quite easy. As RFI states "Meduim and small calibre guns to provide highly visible deterrent and range of effects for Maritime interdiction, be capable of small vessels of up to FAC size, and surviving attackes", gun shall be there.

CAMM needs 2.5x3 m2 size for 6 cell (from T26 fig). So, locate (up to) 24 CAMM amidship in the middile of extention (copy-and-paste T26's amid-VLS), and free-up the bow SAM spaces to host (up to) 127mm gun at the bow. Put a Merlin flight deck, but only a NH90 hangar.

Then, it will really be an ANZAC-NZ mod frigate, replacing the GT's intake-exhaust space for 2x ISO containers.

Actually, merit of being "small" is being cheap in its nature. In other words, spending the same cost as a 4000t design, the 3600t hull will be possible to be improved to "a bit more" like escort standard (e.g. shock resistance, more of water-tight sections and fire-walls, redunduncy in damage control, and so on).

In short, I am very much interested in the beam-width and displacement of Cutlass/Leander proposal.
cutlass_leander_1.jpg

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by marktigger »

R686 wrote:call me a cynic but it seems you really want to win Sea 5000, I do wonder if using the same template across both will actually save money for both nations, all we have to do is get the canucks on board

https://www.pyneonline.com.au/media-cen ... r-for-navy
yes would be nice to see a commonwealth standard but with full cooperation of the Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Simon82 »

Is it too late to switch the Royal Navy’s 8 Type 26 frigates to the CEA radar fit as proposed for the RAN variant and recycle the Type 23’s Artisan radars on the Type 31s instead?

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Aethulwulf »

Simon82 wrote:Is it too late to switch the Royal Navy’s 8 Type 26 frigates to the CEA radar fit as proposed for the RAN variant and recycle the Type 23’s Artisan radars on the Type 31s instead?
It's not too late to switch for some or all of the 3 T26 currently under contract - it would just be very costly and runs the risk of delays. So, very unlikely to happen.

It would be much easier for the second batch of 5 T26, as the contract for these will not be finalised for some years yet.

As for the Artisan radars, they have already been purchased for all 13 T23s (plus Ocean, QECVs and LPDs). Enough to be cross decked over to all 8 T26 and 5 T31. If CEA radars are fitted to some T26, there will be spare sets of Artisans that could be used for other future ships.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Repulse »

Keeping Artisan on 3 of the T26s likely to be in Pompy for the CBG escort would be okay in my view, having CEA of the 5 T26s which are likely to be East of Suez or in the North Atlantic would be good (and would boost export capabilities as part of a defence industry share).

The 10 Artisans left would be what is needed on the 10 T31es :D Perhaps the set from Ocean would also look good on a 9th T26 also :twisted:
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Aethulwulf »

Providing escorts for the two carriers is likely to take up the available sea time for all 6 of the T45s and 6 of the 8 T26. The other two T26 will be busy protecting the CASD SSBNs.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

That is the situation in a nut shell. The Admirals and many on here hate it, but we are going to end up more like the French with a Navy of two halves, one that fights at the highest tier (Queen Elizabeth, T-35, T-26, Astute) and one that keeps an eye on our possessions and shows the flag (T-31, Rivers). This together with operating with our allies such as the US, France, Australia and so on will mean we are still a naval power. We are however at the tipping point, and is the Rn does not receive the T-26s and T-31s planned we will drop far below critical mass. If we have to lose the Amphibs to maintain this then so be it.

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Lord Jim wrote:That is the situation in a nut shell. The Admirals and many on here hate it, but we are going to end up more like the French with a Navy of two halves, one that fights at the highest tier (Queen Elizabeth, T-35, T-26, Astute) and one that keeps an eye on our possessions and shows the flag (T-31, Rivers). This together with operating with our allies such as the US, France, Australia and so on will mean we are still a naval power.
Agreed.
We are however at the tipping point, and is the Rn does not receive the T-26s and T-31s planned we will drop far below critical mass. If we have to lose the Amphibs to maintain this then so be it.
Why? Yes, we may need to ban 1 or 2 T23GP (for now) and 0 to 2 T31e to "save" one LPD active.

But, my point is, which is more critical to "be still a naval power"? ; "lack of assault landing capability" or "reduction of 2 escorts" (actually T23GP) ? I think, former is more critical (although I understand I am a minority here :D )


On the other hand, (regardless of LPD cut), there is a clear risk that, RN will end up with only 14 escorts. Now, HMG is considering to cut 1+1 Albions to partially answer the 20-30B GBP lack of money for coming 10 years. Then, what about the next 10 years? The photo of HMS Lancaster (as I linked in T23 thread) makes me feel this risk being high.

If it is now, we can disband 2 T23GP to save their modernization cost and solve the man-power issue, and also retain 2-3 River B1/1.5 for EEZ patrol. Then we can up-gun 2 of the 5 River B2 for "T31e and T23GP" tasks, and keep 14 T45/T26s. All this "can" even happen without canceling 5 T31e, actually. (although I understand also here I am minority... :D ).

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by matt00773 »

RFP submission date for Canadian CSC frigate programme extended for another two weeks - now 30 November:

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/ ... nt-program

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by matt00773 »

Aethulwulf wrote:Providing escorts for the two carriers is likely to take up the available sea time for all 6 of the T45s and 6 of the 8 T26. The other two T26 will be busy protecting the CASD SSBNs.
T45 and T26 are much more capable individually than previous generation ships and utilising most of the surface fleet to just escort the carriers would be overkill in the highest sense. There's usually just one T45 that provides air defence for US carrier fleets - a role they are frequently requested to perform. Also, the less capable Horizon class and a couple of FREMMs are often seen as the only escorts for the French carrier.

Moreover, any carrier fleet of the US typically has a variety of support ships of other nations - UK, NL, Denmark, Australia etc. This would be no different for UK carrier fleets.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Old RN »

In terms of escort capability for the carriers (and amphibious task group?) could we not fit a towed array (CAPSTA?) to the T45s. I am afraid my active knowledge of sonar sets stops at the Type 184 on Leanders and 2007/2026 on SSNs but given the the T45 is very large why not add a supposed "bolt-on" tail?

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by marktigger »

are the type 45's sound suppressed?

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Old RN
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Old RN »

marktigger wrote:are the type 45's sound suppressed?
That should not be too much of an issue with a TA. If there was a T26 and a T45 in escort the T45 would be detected by the T26 TA anyway?

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