Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[dmereifield]

Great. Now, count how many gaps do you see there. Now you see why I'm so full of negativity about RN/UKAF future...

why Harpoon came in Air, Land, Ship and submarine launched versions and there is no reason to believe the next generaton of ASM won't be capable of that.

Merlin has the capacity to take LMM and venom only thing stopping it is FAA politics.

an internationally standard launcker like Mk 41 on Type 26 and type 31 would make integration easier and seaceptor can be launched from Mk41. P8 and F35 will have the capability and I would suggest other typhoon operating nations like Germany, Italy and spain will want to integrate a NATO standard anti ship missile

Do you honestly think that the T31 will have ASM and/or Mk41 VLS?

[MRCA]

Harpoon may have indeed come with air sea and sub sea but as is typical with mod we ended up with sea eagle, harpoon and Exocet all inservice at the same time! We seem in danger of doing the same with the launcher systems and torpedos too we don’t seem to learn!

If harpoon is really life ex, and we’re funding a replacement with the French then it would seem somewhat sensible to co-operate with the French and get Exocet blk 3 and transition to the new missile in a decade or so time. In fact I would be inclined to scrap type 26 all together and licence build fremm in a batch of 12 to replace type23 and type 45 on a common platform with a uk radar systems installed.

[marktigger]

Do you honestly think that the T31 will have ASM and/or Mk41 VLS?

to meet the desired goal of being an "exportable" frigate it will need to have those sorts of things to compete
Launchers like MK41 and Sylver give that flexibility to carry either/or or a mix of weapons and Type 31 will need that sort of flexibility both for the royal navy but more importantly to compete on the world market.

Harpoon may have indeed come with air sea and sub sea but as is typical with mod we ended up with sea eagle, harpoon and Exocet all inservice at the same time! We seem in danger of doing the same with the launcher systems and torpedos too we don’t seem to learn!

If harpoon is really life ex, and we’re funding a replacement with the French then it would seem somewhat sensible to co-operate with the French and get Exocet blk 3 and transition to the new missile in a decade or so time. In fact I would be inclined to scrap type 26 all together and licence build fremm in a batch of 12 to replace type23 and type 45 on a common platform with a uk radar systems installed.

I'd be more inclines to look at what will be nato standard and the most easy to integrate and go American P8 and F35 will be set p for it already.
we ended up with the 3 missiles because the UK was torn in different competing directions wanting a system Now and wanting to be good neighbours meant we went exocet. Wanting to keep home industry going meant we went for Sea Eagle. and them waking up and smelling the coffee we had to then go for the more capable harpoon when it was clear it was our allies standard

[MRCA]

If we’re buying American why fund a uk French future missile program! Why have stingray if you want mk43 are we gonna pay to clear it on type23/26, merlin, wildcat ect because if we are we’ll be the only ones. Why have sylver launcher systems have all your current missiles and future uk/French missiles programs sylver capable and integrated, only to go to a mk41 launcher system which you alone will need to pay to integrate on? Do we think we’re buying something else while funding alternatives or are we just wasting money on the whim of whoever is in charge this month? It’s the navy equivalent of FRES can decide what they want.

People like to talk a lot about european countries pulling there weight standing on there own two feet. A lot of time that’s code for buy American. If we in Europe are to stand on our own two feet then we should be buying equipment and sensors made here not in the US. American equipment is always more manpower intensive and more expensive thru life than other designs. Areas we’re historically poor at budgeting for.

[RetroSicotte]

If we’re buying American why fund a uk French future missile program!

Because the UK needs an anti-ship missile from 2020, the UK/French one isn't going to be here until after 2030.

[abc123]

If we’re buying American why fund a uk French future missile program!

Because the UK needs an anti-ship missile from 2020, the UK/French one isn't going to be here until after 2030.

So, there's no ASMs on the world market available right now? Or problem is the money? So, why you think that there will be money in 2030 when we all clearly see that UK plc ( at least UK AF part ) has less and less money each year?

[Lord Jim]

Money, money , money and the fact no body actually wants to make a decision however hard or simple within the MoD these days.

[Ron5]

Harpoon may have indeed come with air sea and sub sea but as is typical with mod we ended up with sea eagle, harpoon and Exocet all inservice at the same time! We seem in danger of doing the same with the launcher systems and torpedos too we don’t seem to learn!

If harpoon is really life ex, and we’re funding a replacement with the French then it would seem somewhat sensible to co-operate with the French and get Exocet blk 3 and transition to the new missile in a decade or so time. In fact I would be inclined to scrap type 26 all together and licence build fremm in a batch of 12 to replace type23 and type 45 on a common platform with a uk radar systems installed.

The only people that would be happy with your idea to replace Type 26's with FREMM either live near the Kremlin or Paris.

As for anti-ship missiles, let's just cancel the purchase of one Typhoon and use the money to equip the fleet. What are they now? about 150 million each?

[Ron5]

If we’re buying American why fund a uk French future missile program! Why have stingray if you want mk43 are we gonna pay to clear it on type23/26, merlin, wildcat ect because if we are we’ll be the only ones. Why have sylver launcher systems have all your current missiles and future uk/French missiles programs sylver capable and integrated, only to go to a mk41 launcher system which you alone will need to pay to integrate on? Do we think we’re buying something else while funding alternatives or are we just wasting money on the whim of whoever is in charge this month? It’s the navy equivalent of FRES can decide what they want.

People like to talk a lot about european countries pulling there weight standing on there own two feet. A lot of time that’s code for buy American. If we in Europe are to stand on our own two feet then we should be buying equipment and sensors made here not in the US. American equipment is always more manpower intensive and more expensive thru life than other designs. Areas we’re historically poor at budgeting for.

Talking out of both sides of your mouth, a few posts ago you wanted the UK to cancel the Type 26 and buy a French ship.

By the way, Lockheed paid to qualify UK CAMM to be fired from their VLS.

The Navy knows exactly what it wants. The comparison with FRES is frivolous.

[Ron5]

Money, money , money and the fact no body actually wants to make a decision however hard or simple within the MoD these days.

They made a decision: no new ASM for now. It's the bitching on these boards you should be complaining about.

[MRCA]

Talking out of both sides of your mouth, a few posts ago you wanted the UK to cancel the Type 26 and buy a French ship.

By the way, Lockheed paid to qualify UK CAMM to be fired from their VLS.

The Navy knows exactly what it wants. The comparison with FRES is frivolous.

Better than u talking out you behind! No I’m making the point go one way or the other It’s a simple option. I think the navy hasn’t got a scoobie doo what it wants or can afford with the budget it’s got that’s why it’s in the complete mess it currently is.

Fremm is a very capable frigate in service and has and will sell overseas. To suggest the RN taking it into service just makes you look incredibly silly

[benny14]

suggest the RN taking it into service just makes you look incredibly silly

You suggested it...

[MRCA]

Sorry left out a bit was on the phone. Should read

To suggest the RN taking it into service would be welcomed in the Kremlin makes you look incredibly silly.

[marktigger]

i suspect if fremm was what the Navy wanted then T26 would be an awful lot like it.

[matt00773]

i suspect if fremm was what the Navy wanted then T26 would be an awful lot like it.

Exactly.

Type 26 has unique AWS innovations which seem far advanced of anything else and a configurable multi mission bay. FREMM is a bit too generic but can adapt to fulfil multiple purposes.

I can't honestly understand a comment from someone previously that Type 45 should scrapped and replaced with FREMM frigates. I assume this person was drunk at the time.

[Gabriele]

Type 26 has unique AWS innovations

?

[Ron5]

The French FREMMs are particularly awful, the Italian ones are better but still no match for the Type 26.

[Ron5]

Talking out of both sides of your mouth, a few posts ago you wanted the UK to cancel the Type 26 and buy a French ship.

By the way, Lockheed paid to qualify UK CAMM to be fired from their VLS.

The Navy knows exactly what it wants. The comparison with FRES is frivolous.

Better than u talking out you behind! No I’m making the point go one way or the other It’s a simple option. I think the navy hasn’t got a scoobie doo what it wants or can afford with the budget it’s got that’s why it’s in the complete mess it currently is.

Fremm is a very capable frigate in service and has and will sell overseas. To suggest the RN taking it into service just makes you look incredibly silly

The Navy knows exactly what it wants. On the other hand, the government by imposing cut after cut after cut, clearly does not.

[Lord Jim]

I agree the RN knows what it wants it just doesn't know what it needs. It was given free range regarding the T-26 and though the design is very good it is too expensive for the available budget to replace the T-23 as intended. As for a replacement ASM, well we don't need one as a priority, we haven't fired one in anger from a ship ever since the RN introduced them so as long as the T-26 and T-31 can defend themselves from hostile ASMs, and we are not talking Cold War multi regimental Backfire/Badger attacks here, then I will be happy. When we do get a new ASM we probably won't bother integrating it on to the Poseidon or buying any from that role either (see other thread). If we actually end up with 6 refitted T-45s with 8-16 Mk41 VLS added, 8 T-2 and 5-8 T-31 as our escorts and 2 Carriers and 7 very good SSNs as front end of the RN we will have a pretty effective navy with a greater global reach than many others. My default setting is to be negative but the T-31 will save the RN from going down the high end or nothing route that would leave it with the number of escorts in service dropping to single digits. It will have the capacity to have its capabilities enhanced down the line and because the initial hulls are going to be cheap, adding systems will be seen as a positive rather than buying expensive hulls and still wanting to add more and more. Just enough to get the job done should be the T-31 mantra. The T-26 Cruiser will be a very effective ship, the best in the world at ASW in all probability with good capabilities above and beyond that and it will probably always carry a Merlin, which is the world's best ASW Helo. WE will have 2 large flexible carriers other nations would die for especially given their frugal running costs compared to more traditional designs. Who knows once other countries see them in actual service with their air wing we could even see the design licenced to one or more other countries. And finally the SSN or Astute. It has the potential to be the worlds best SSN giving the USN's Virginia and Sea Wolf a run for their money. Given we ae spending only around 2% of out GDP on defence a RN made up of the above is still pretty damned good if we concentrate on moving forwards and not crying over the past.

[benny14]

T-26 Cruiser

Maybe getting close to a destroyer, but certainly not a cruiser.

I do agree with what you are saying, however it still leaves us with some pretty big gaps in the meantime until those upgrades get implemented. The RN moto is gap and pray we don't need it, but if we need it we are screwed.

[shark bait]

Destroyer/Cruiser is meaningless.

It is a big escort.

[shark bait]

The RN will buy the dual purpose antiship/land attack missile under development by MBDA.

Yep, that will be the next surface launched ASM the RN buy.

That is a long way off, and with many more important things short on funding the RN isn't going to splash out on a weapon its never used.

Need to focus on getting big missiles for P8 and F35 first.

[shark bait]

Gas turbines are very noisy and you need to be as quiet as possible when hunting submarines.

To a submarine a Gas Turbine is no louder than a Diesel, as the turbine engine emits a much higher frequency that doesn't propagate so well through water as the lower frequencies from a reciprocating engine.

The real acoustic benefit comes from the electric propulsion, because here the hull is mechanically isolated from the engines, and we have a nice smooth electric motor driving the shaft instead.

[abc123]

As for a replacement ASM, well we don't need one as a priority, we haven't fired one in anger from a ship ever since the RN introduced them

When we do get a new ASM

Three things:

a) if ASMs are so not needed, why all other navies around the world are still buying/fitting them on their ships, from FACs to destroyers/cruisers? Everybody stupid except the RN?

b) if they are so not needed, why buy them at all?

c) if no ASMs on frigates, no ASMs on destroyers, no ASMs on Poseidons, no ASMs on Typhoons, no ASMs on F-35, no ASMs on submarines, and with just 7 SSNs ( with about 3-4 active all the time ) and whole globe to cover- what exactly is the plan for RN ships to do if faced with any enemy ship/shore battery armed with ASMs ( not to mention supersonic missiles )- run as hell and pray as much as possible to Jesus, Allah, Budha and Krishna that CAAM/Aster is 100% effective?
Or this: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bsrZzTl-Lw0/S ... g+ship.JPG

[Lord Jim]

Yes and everybody now seems to want to fit 5" guns to everything bigger than an FAC yet how often have these been used by the worlds navies except the UK and USA? ASM have had a moderate effect on naval warfare, the sinking of the Israeli Destroyer in the 1960 scared the life out of Naval Commanders, made worse by the performance of the Israeli Gabriel in the October War in 1973. Iranian and Iraqi FACs fired numerous ASMs at defenceless Tankers hitting some warships which put themselves in the way. Most ASMs have been fired from aircraft and against targets ill equipped to defend against them. Modern SAMs and CIWS greatly reduce the effectiveness of current ASMs and ASMs are very expensive. Yes there are supersonic ASMs out there but these are not wonder weapons or in use by possible future hostile countries in very large numbers. RN escorts will be operating as part of joint task forces in any conflict against anything like a pier opponent. There will be no shortage of ASMs available to make the opponents day a very bad one. What the RN will bring is superior ASW and ships bale to defend themselves. The RN will still have ASMs on its Rotary assets and SPEAR will provide the F-35 with a viable ASM. Sub Harpoon and SM-39 Exocet are really blue water weapons. The Spearfish has almost the same effective range as the above, is a one shot kill weapons against anything except the largest carriers, unlike current western ASMs and can be launched without giving away the position of the submarine involved.

If the funding was available I am sure the RN would be replacing the Harpoon now whist the T-23s are undergoing refit and fitting the same weapon to he T-45. But the funding isn't there. Feel free to suggest another MoD programme that the RN can give up to but something we don't need but would be nice to have, now about CROWSNEST. Not every navy in the world is buying a AEW&C platform, which we really need, but we should get rid of it as we need to keep up with the Jones's and but a new ASM because everyone else has decided to.

Things we want should be in the Fantasy fleet discussions. What we NEED should remain here.