Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[benny14]

I find it very hard to believe that ANYTHING not in posession of the RN RIGHT NOW will be put on Type 26. After all, what has stopped the RN to buy ASROC for the last 50-60 years? Same thing for LRASM- speaking about them and the RN still didn't order enough Tomahawks for their Mk41 VLS on T26? Same thing for future ASM... Speaking about that option while having no money just to keep old Harpoons in service- it's like saying that you will buy a new Bentley, but you don't have enough money to change tires on your old Golf 2.

I know the RN has messed up with the harpoon, but I don't think the Harpoon will be in use by 2026 due to it already been out of date. Bringing the type 26 in to service with no anti-ship or anti-submarine capability would be beyond a joke, and I don't think that even the RN/MOD will fall in to that PR disaster.

so ocean with 6 merlin HMA2 onboard isn't an asw platform?

Dont forget that if carrying out a ASW task it would be using its Merlins to support a frigate with a towed array.

Its still a frigate, its still an escort. By your logic the Type 23 (GP) isn't a frigate or escort and neither was the Type 22/III.

Frigate does not = ASW vessel

The type 31 would definitely be a light-frigate if it is properly armed. Putting it in the low end class of frigates, not medium or high end.

Frigate + Towed array, Merlin and Anti-Submarine weaponry is a ASW platform. The Type 31 is not, it is a (GP) general purpose frigate.

Again it depends on its weaponry if it can be considered an escort and not a patrol vessel. If the type 31 does not have anti-ship, anti-submarine weaponry and a painfully low amount of Anti-air weaponry then it is not a very capable escort and I would consider it to be a patrol vessel. The only thing it would be escorting with that load out is a fishing boat from Somali pirates.

[abc123]

I find it very hard to believe that ANYTHING not in posession of the RN RIGHT NOW will be put on Type 26. After all, what has stopped the RN to buy ASROC for the last 50-60 years? Same thing for LRASM- speaking about them and the RN still didn't order enough Tomahawks for their Mk41 VLS on T26? Same thing for future ASM... Speaking about that option while having no money just to keep old Harpoons in service- it's like saying that you will buy a new Bentley, but you don't have enough money to change tires on your old Golf 2.

I know the RN has messed up with the harpoon, but I don't think the Harpoon will be in use by 2026 due to it already been out of date. Bringing the type 26 in to service with no anti-ship or anti-submarine capability would be beyond a joke, and I don't think that even the RN/MOD will fall in to that PR disaster.

RN/MoD- the same navy/department that has put Type 45 in service without ASW-weapons and ASMs? Sure, no way they can do something like that again... It isn't the question is Harpoon obsolete or not, the question is- what has the RN done to fix that? Have they bought something new? Something better? And the answer is- NOTHING. And will not do anything except MAYBE extend the life of current Harpoons for a few years more. Or, just look at the USN/ US DoD for comparison. That's the navy/Government that has done something about that. LRASM is allready in the works. When we see something similar in the RN, a bit of long term planning and care instead of cut after cut, then maybe I will believe that the RN has bright future.

[marktigger]

Given that BAe are looking at USN, RAN and RCN integration of a ASM could be already sorted purchasing them is another issue

[Caribbean]

There are 2 types of surface combatant, escorts and patrol vessels.

Any ship can escort, any ship can patrol. What determines their effectiveness is the type and level of threat and the capabilities that they embody.

The type 31 would definitely be a light-frigate if it is properly armed. Putting it in the low end class of frigates, not medium or high end.

So the T23GP is a low-end light frigate?

[WhitestElephant]

So the T23GP is a low-end light frigate?

They have been neutered, so yes.

[benny14]

So the T23GP is a low-end light frigate?

No. I would consider the type 23 a medium-high end frigate. It has very well rounded capabilities.

The proposed type 31 does not even come close to matching the GP type 23.

[Caribbean]

They have been neutered, so yes.

No. I would consider the type 23 a medium-high end frigate. It has very well rounded capabilities.

C'mon guys, get your story straight.

If there was ever a demonstration of complete bullshittery, these two posts are it.

[RetroSicotte]

More to the point, don't get too worried about labels and what counts as what in name only.

Actual capabilities are what matters. Not what its name is. Leave name spinning to the MoD.

[R686]

Again it depends on its weaponry if it can be considered an escort and not a patrol vessel. If the type 31 does not have anti-ship, anti-submarine weaponry and a painfully low amount of Anti-air weaponry then it is not a very capable escort and I would consider it to be a patrol vessel. The only thing it would be escorting with that load out is a fishing boat from Somali pirates.

Tell that to the Kiwis

http://nzdf.mil.nz/news/media-releases/ ... acific.htm

[marktigger]

So the T23GP is a low-end light frigate?

They have been neutered, so yes.

right given NATO and the USN will still have stocks of Harpoon if the need arises I'm fairly confident harpoon would mysteriously appear on the type 23. And by the time the type 26 is going "feet wet" the NATO standard antiship missile will have been worked out as opposed to us buying a system now and then having to replace it or run 2 systems in parallell like we did with Harpoon and Exocet. Maybe the MoD has learnt some lessons from previous procurement

As to the lack of TAS on some 23's there are many frigates out there who don't have towed array in 1st world allies fleets

[Opinion3]

I'm not sure that the RN is being dumb on the Harpoon replacement. Essentially they have three options 1) what they want 2) life extension 3) something else

They are holding out for what they want, it is the right decision but sadly might involve some gapping or life extensions. From a technical point of view they are more likely to be right than us blog posters, of course they risk us being caught short.

As for the need for escorts, we are a seafaring nation and most of our tasks can be split into three categories

Area defence and offensive action - that requires ADD, ASW capabilities offered by the task group including T45s and T26s
Escort duties in order to support the above and the escorting of both supplies and trade - this requires point defence, so we are told, and anti surface and sub surface capabilities. I am not convinced that a large convoy could be covered by point defence but maybe someone else on the forum could advise
Patrol duties, I can see the need to hunt for mines, submarines, pirates, fishing vessels and the Spanish all falling into this category. However in the case of many of the tasks we carry out I actually believe the large Bay style vessel is better suited. So much flexibility from that space and a helicopter and some RIBs are usually the weapon for choice.

We lack offensive land attack, sufficient Area Defence for static areas such as the British Isles due to a lack of T45 numbers (although Portsmouth is currently well defended), and the numbers to protect against submarine intrusion. Some will say the T31 with its sonars will cover this, but unless it takes a Merlin aren't we hampering its potential?

[Repulse]

I think the T31e has an important role as part of an Escort group as was the Sloops of WW2. However, probably the best thing would be to combine with an escort carrier with Merlins (ASW & Crownest) and even a couple of Maritime / CAP F35Bs. That is why given limited budgets I’d go for auxiliary LPH carriers over LPDs due to their flexibility - sure LHDs would give both, but comes with a price.

[abc123]

So the T23GP is a low-end light frigate?

They have been neutered, so yes.

right given NATO and the USN will still have stocks of Harpoon if the need arises I'm fairly confident harpoon would mysteriously appear on the type 23.

So begging around to get it's ass out of fire is now SOP for the RN/UKAF?

[abc123]

I'm not sure that the RN is being dumb on the Harpoon replacement. Essentially they have three options 1) what they want 2) life extension 3) something else

They are holding out for what they want,

Mark my words, UK will NEVER buy either LRASM or future supersonic missile or any ASM at all for future frigates/destroyers.

And I will be happiest man here if I'm wrong.

[Ron5]

The RN will buy the dual purpose antiship/land attack missile under development by MBDA.

[abc123]

The RN will buy the dual purpose antiship/land attack missile under development by MBDA.

Let's hope so...

Meanwhile, we have another 15-20 years gap. And then the Treasury will say: See, you managed without them for the last 20 years, obviously you don't need them...

[Caribbean]

The RN will buy the dual purpose antiship/land attack missile under development by MBDA.

Let's hope so...

Meanwhile, we have another 15-20 years gap. And then the Treasury will say: See, you managed without them for the last 20 years, obviously you don't need them...

.
Only the Treasury doesn't make those decisions. Cabinet makes those decisions, under the Chairmanship of the First Lord of the Treasury (the Prime Minister's official title - "Prime Minister" was originally an insult). The Treasury's job is to provide the money. If the Cabinet decides to spend more than the Treasury has available, then the Treasury has to either increase income (raise taxes) or borrow (issue bonds). The Cabinet then decides whether it wants to do that and, if not, reviews and cuts the various budgets to achieve the spending outcome that it wants. Cabinet also prioritises budget allocations to support the policy objectives that it wishes to promote. Individual departments then have to decide how to allocate the budget provided and make their own decisions. The Treasury is involved in he process, but it's actually the Cabinet that makes the budget decisions and bears (collective) responsibility for that. Individual Ministers are responsible for Departments budgets are spent.It's nice and convenient , but essentially completely meaningless, to blame everything on the Treasury, when the decisions are actually made elsewhere.

[benny14]

Mark my words, UK will NEVER buy either LRASM or future supersonic missile or any ASM at all for future frigates/destroyers.

I know the RN/MOD has a painful track record but this is just not going to happen. We are going to get something eventually, most likely the MBDA missile in the late 2020s as Ron said, with either a stock gap missile or a life extension to our current harpoons, the extension been highly likely.

C'mon guys, get your story straight.

If there was ever a demonstration of complete bullshittery, these two posts are it.

This is an open forum, we all have different opinions and viewpoints. We do not need to get our stories straight. I obviously disagree with the other poster you quoted.

[Opinion3]

Mark my words, UK will NEVER buy either LRASM or future supersonic missile or any ASM at all for future frigates/destroyers.

I certainly don't know anything to the contrary, and we gap so many capabilities you are more likely to be right than wrong. That said if there is a need there are six options
NSM
RSB15 Mk3
Exocet MM40 Block 3
LRASM
Harpoon II ER
Our own development

If the enemy has clever ECM it is a choice of LRASM or die quite possibly....... (although the Saab and our own development might cut the mustard)

[abc123]

The RN will buy the dual purpose antiship/land attack missile under development by MBDA.

Let's hope so...

Meanwhile, we have another 15-20 years gap. And then the Treasury will say: See, you managed without them for the last 20 years, obviously you don't need them...

.
Only the Treasury doesn't make those decisions. Cabinet makes those decisions, under the Chairmanship of the First Lord of the Treasury (the Prime Minister's official title - "Prime Minister" was originally an insult). The Treasury's job is to provide the money. If the Cabinet decides to spend more than the Treasury has available, then the Treasury has to either increase income (raise taxes) or borrow (issue bonds). The Cabinet then decides whether it wants to do that and, if not, reviews and cuts the various budgets to achieve the spending outcome that it wants. Cabinet also prioritises budget allocations to support the policy objectives that it wishes to promote. Individual departments then have to decide how to allocate the budget provided and make their own decisions. The Treasury is involved in he process, but it's actually the Cabinet that makes the budget decisions and bears (collective) responsibility for that. Individual Ministers are responsible for Departments budgets are spent.It's nice and convenient , but essentially completely meaningless, to blame everything on the Treasury, when the decisions are actually made elsewhere.

I fully agree. Treasury will do what No. 10 tells them. But, if we take last say 20 years as any indicator, then we can only count that No. 10 will tell them to reduce MoD budget even further... And if Comrade Corbyn get's into power, then

[marktigger]

So the T23GP is a low-end light frigate?

They have been neutered, so yes.

right given NATO and the USN will still have stocks of Harpoon if the need arises I'm fairly confident harpoon would mysteriously appear on the type 23.

So begging around to get it's ass out of fire is now SOP for the RN/UKAF?

suggest you work out where the AIM9L, Shrike and paveway right down to rolls of punch tape came from in the falklands war
various item in Gulf war 1 & 2
same in practically every war we have recently been involved in we have had to borrow.......the Yanks even refer to us as that!

[abc123]

So the T23GP is a low-end light frigate?

They have been neutered, so yes.

right given NATO and the USN will still have stocks of Harpoon if the need arises I'm fairly confident harpoon would mysteriously appear on the type 23.

So begging around to get it's ass out of fire is now SOP for the RN/UKAF?

suggest you work out where the AIM9L, Shrike and paveway right down to rolls of punch tape came from in the falklands war
various item in Gulf war 1 & 2
same in practically every war we have recently been involved in we have had to borrow.......the Yanks even refer to us as that!

Well yes, I know that, but I don't consider that as something good and praiseworthy...

[marktigger]

Well yes, I know that, but I don't consider that as something good and praiseworthy...

no it isn't ideal.
However I'd rather not see us buy twice like we did with Exocet then going to Harpoon.
Some of the T45 were fitted for Harpoon the 23's are the 26 might be along in time for the new missile as might the 31 I's also like to see astute get a sub launched ASM as well as air launched versions for P8, F35 and typhoon and Merlin get Antiship capability

[abc123]

Well yes, I know that, but I don't consider that as something good and praiseworthy...

no it isn't ideal.
However I'd rather not see us buy twice like we did with Exocet then going to Harpoon.
Some of the T45 were fitted for Harpoon the 23's are the 26 might be along in time for the new missile as might the 31 I's also like to see astute get a sub launched ASM as well as air launched versions for P8, F35 and typhoon and Merlin get Antiship capability

Great. Now, count how many gaps do you see there. Now you see why I'm so full of negativity about RN/UKAF future...

[marktigger]

Great. Now, count how many gaps do you see there. Now you see why I'm so full of negativity about RN/UKAF future...

why Harpoon came in Air, Land, Ship and submarine launched versions and there is no reason to believe the next generaton of ASM won't be capable of that.

Merlin has the capacity to take LMM and venom only thing stopping it is FAA politics.

an internationally standard launcker like Mk 41 on Type 26 and type 31 would make integration easier and seaceptor can be launched from Mk41. P8 and F35 will have the capability and I would suggest other typhoon operating nations like Germany, Italy and spain will want to integrate a NATO standard anti ship missile