Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Ron5]

The original name for the Halifax program was Canadian Patrol Frigate (CPF) but I wouldn't read too much into their use of "patrol" if I were you. They're proper frigates.

[Opinion3]

I suspect Mark is asking the sort of questions our MPs should be asking. Namely have we been asking all the right questions and have we learnt all the lessons from the past.

Earlier in this thread we talked about the sloop, we have also talked about our industrial capacity and many other things in between. Looking at the past I suspect the sloop design is considered a success because we were able to build these in volume. Would the design come out tops without that specific requirement? One thing for sure, without the ability to source materials, the skills to design and innovate and the manufacturing capabilities both Russia and Great Britain would be very different places today.

That said our MPs are failing to do the jobs we pay them for. Only they can really hold the Government to account

[WhitestElephant]

The way things are going, the hidden (yet very real) cost of T31e could be the loss of Albion and Bulwark.

£1.25 billion and the associated manpower could be put to far better use by investing it in our amphibious capabilities, getting an extra T26 and help toward properly arming the T45s and T26s.

[Spinflight]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/202588

Nuff said.

[shark bait]

[Broken_record]

Yeah we could build 5 more bay class.

[/Broken_record]

[shark bait]

They're proper frigates.

Yep, they patrol with a towed sonar = proper frigates

It's something the Canadians have historically taken very seriously, like the UK contributing a good chuck of NATOs ASW expertise. Don't know where they sit now though.

[Caribbean]

The way things are going, the hidden (yet very real) cost of T31e could be the loss of Albion and Bulwark.

What, as well as 5 GP T26 and a slowing down of F35 orders? We sure planned to get a lot out of that £1.5b.

[Repulse]

[Broken_record]

Yeah we could build 5 more bay class.

[/Broken_record]

Or build 10 B3 Rivers with extendable hangar, 76mm and a CIWS - for around for £120mn each and then a forth Bay...

[abc123]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/202588

Nuff said.

I'm not an UK citizen/resident so I can't sign, but as friend of the UK and the RN I fully support this petition.

[donald_of_tokyo]

The way things are going, the hidden (yet very real) cost of T31e could be the loss of Albion and Bulwark.

£1.25 billion and the associated manpower could be put to far better use by investing it in our amphibious capabilities, getting an extra T26 and help toward properly arming the T45s and T26s.

No directly. I understand it is man-power and operation cost. Until 2023, T31e does not require any crew. Canceling it will provide money, which in principle can be used for operation.

But, canceling 5 T31e MUST be associated with disbanding 5 T23GP now. And, this will solve the issue completely: provide enough crew and operation cost. Personally, I propose to disband 2 T23GP NOW, which is enough to save 1+1 LPD. Even it is only 2 hulls, crew and operational cost equivalent to disbanding 1+1 LPD can be obtained. Yes, interestingly, in this case we do not need to cancel 5 T31e at all.

P.S. In this case, canceling T31e will be an option for possible "future cut", further on.

[Ron5]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/202588

Nuff said.

I'm not an UK citizen/resident so I can't sign, but as friend of the UK and the RN I fully support this petition.

I signed (wink, wink). I used cockneyjock's post code.

[Caribbean]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/202588

Signed. Only 4808 signatures when I checked - need to do what we can to get people to sign it

[SKB]

If you need more alternatives for postcodes, here are some others:

SW1A 1AA - Buckingham Palace
SW1A 2AA - 10 Downing Street
EH99 1SP - Scottish Parliament, Edinburgh
W1A 1AA - BBC Broadcasting House
W12 7RJ - Television Centre (ex BBC)
PO1 3LJ - HMS Victory, Portsmouth

[Spinflight]

Cutting Type 23s now for what reason?

It's escorts we are short of... Unless you think that something sans CIWS with a mere medium calibre gun and CAAM isn't capable enoug..

Oh wait.

[Caribbean]

Cutting Type 23s now for what reason?

It's escorts we are short of... Unless you think that something sans CIWS with a mere medium calibre gun and CAAM isn't capable enoug..

Oh wait.

Oh dear - now you've done it!

[donald_of_tokyo]

Cutting Type 23s now for what reason?

Many.
- LPD issue is talking about "lack of capability". Disbanding 2 T23GP is just 2 of the 13 frigates.
- T31e is not an escort. So, RN will not have 19 escorts in future. Just making it happen 5 years earlier has almost zero impact on RN operation.
- [EDIT] If T31e goes on, replacing 3 remaining T23GPmod with 5 T31e presence ship around 2023-27 is a good buy, if we want to keep standing tasks. For example, crew number is similar 540 vs 500.
- If T31e is to be canceled, anyway there will be no "5 more escorts", so again no problem with disbanding 2 of them now. [EDIT] With 1.25B GBP cost, we can anyway only get 1 T26 and some OPVs.
- Disbanding T23GPs after modification is stupid. If RN is to lose "5 escorts", do it NOW, and it will save 100-200M GBP of modernization cost.

[CameronPerson]

Talking of the T23..

http://www.janes.com/article/75174/braz ... ns-from-uk

[marktigger]

Talking of the T23..

http://www.janes.com/article/75174/braz ... ns-from-uk

be interesting to see the text of the full article.


of course the Type 23GP's couldn't be converted? say if during refit there were issues with one of the ASW ones that were uneconomic to rectify. So having them as close to the asw ones is a good thing

[benny14]

Lost for words.

From Jane:

"The navies of Brazil and Chile are assessing the potential acquisition of UK Royal Navy (RN) frigates and amphibious ships in the event that they become available for sale in the near term, military sources in Rio de Janeiro and Santiago have told Jane's .

According to officials in both countries, UK representatives have discreetly advised that a number of Type 23 frigates and the two landing platform dock (LPD) ships HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark may become available as a result of budget-driven options currently being considered that would cut the RN frontline."

http://www.janes.com/article/75174/braz ... ns-from-uk

[abc123]

Lost for words.

From Jane:

"The navies of Brazil and Chile are assessing the potential acquisition of UK Royal Navy (RN) frigates and amphibious ships in the event that they become available for sale in the near term, military sources in Rio de Janeiro and Santiago have told Jane's .

According to officials in both countries, UK representatives have discreetly advised that a number of Type 23 frigates and the two landing platform dock (LPD) ships HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark may become available as a result of budget-driven options currently being considered that would cut the RN frontline."

http://www.janes.com/article/75174/braz ... ns-from-uk

Have they asked Argentinians?

[Rambo]

Does this sound like we’re not going to upgrade 2/3 T23’s and flog them instead? the plot thickens...

[benny14]

Does this sound like we’re not going to upgrade 2/3 T23’s and flog them instead? the plot thickens...

Selling off frigates will be the ultimate embarrassment to the government, especially when they are committed to keeping the escort force at its current number and "growing the navy". Hopefully this level of desperation forces them to increase the budget next month. At the moment it looks like even the 5 T31s are at risk due to the budget, I can even see the type 26 numbers been cut down from 8 to 6.

[marktigger]

last minute Pre Budget spinning and dealing

[Jake1992]

Does this sound like we’re not going to upgrade 2/3 T23’s and flog them instead? the plot thickens...

Selling off frigates will be the ultimate embarrassment to the government, especially when they are committed to keeping the escort force at its current number and "growing the navy". Hopefully this level of desperation forces them to increase the budget next month. At the moment it looks like even the 5 T31s are at risk due to the budget, I can even see the type 26 numbers been cut down from 8 to 6.

Unfortunately I can't see them increasing the budget any more. I'm all for living with in our means but it seems like austerity has took it as far as it can now. We're now at a point where every department is desperately vieing for very limited funds and unlike education, the NHS or welfare the armed forces are an easy target, unlike these other areas service men and women or top brass do not come out a publicly shame HMG about the lack of funds unlike teacher doctors or benefit claimants.

2 things could be done so that only a slight increase would be needed.
1 - transfer the CASD back to central government
2 - change the law on over seas aid to allow 25% of it to be spent in the MOD ( this way the the services get a boost while still appearing to spend 0.7% )
With this a small annual increas of around £4bn would give us all the funds that are needed.

No cuts only growth

[donald_of_tokyo]

Rationale for T31e. I see someones are depressed, but I am not much so.

Fact:
- T31e is £250M average = £1.25B for 5 hulls. It is 1/4 in cost of T26. Thus, it cannot be a "proper light frigate" = escort.
- RFI also follows the £250M ave figure. Lack of many aspects are no surprise here. It is anyway cheap.
- It requires "120m length and 4000t FLD size", to be capable to operate (not just steam) in blue water.

Assumption: Reading from RFI, I assume a "baseline T31e" will be equipped with
- 114mm re-used gun or 57mm gun, 2x 30mm gun, and 12-24 CAMM, 4-6x 0.5cal. MG.
- 1x Wildcat and 1x RQ4 UAV, 2x RHIBs, 2x ORC (in mission bay).
- 3D radar (ARTISAN), 24kt speed, 5000nm@15kt range, 36 days endurance.
- sonar and turpedo defence FTR (not fitted), but with ESM/Chaff/Flare,

Assessment:
- It will be a good presense ship.
- T31e is far more armed than River OPV, but can never be considered as an escort (too cheap).
- It can operate in many area. Navies with only 4 or 5 missle boats using Exocet-era ASMs is not a threat, becase soft-kill +12 CAMM (+better with 57mm gun) is effective against them. (Also newer generation ASM is expensive).
- Many (>30) navies have more than 6 missile boats, but, most of them is friendly nations. Also there are more navies having less than 4 missile boats.

- APT-S in 1990-2000 was T42 and T21. They are not required to defeat all Argentina military. "Diffucult to be defeated" is the requirement. In this regard, T31e can be "diffucult to be defeated" in many of the area, in addition.
- Lack of ASW capability limits this "good area", but number of navies actively operating sub is not large and also many are allies.

Things I like to note = clever aspects of T31e.
- T31e is "much much less" than T26. So, replacing T26 by T31e does not make sense = defending 8 T26 has a good rationale.
- T31e program cost is only £1.25B GBP. Damage they give to the escort fleet is only equivalent to 5/4 = 1.25x T26. Very small. Cutting T31e program is not an answer to make escorts number back to 19. It can make it 15, but never 19.
- So I think the program itself is well thought. Good job, I think.
- But always, "just abandon standing tasks" and "accept decreasing UK influence in these area" is an option. This will make 15 (not 19) escort fleet. This is also not that bad, I agree.