Russian Armed Forces

News and discussion threads on defence in other parts of the world.
abc123
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by abc123 »

xav wrote:
Russian Navy Special Forces to Receive P-650 Midget Submarines

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The Russian Navy’s special operations forces (SOF) will receive the newest P-650 special-purpose midget submarines. These ships display just 720 tons and will be able to covertly deliver special-purpose and SOF groups to the shore and retrieve them. The submarine was designed by the Malakhit Special Marine Engineering Design Bureau. According to experts, it will be a response to the introduction of submarines converted by the U.S. Navy into SOF platforms, the newspaper Izvestia reported.
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... rines.html
Not exactly midget at 720 t IMHO. Of course, if not comparing them with Oscar class...

But I do wonder, how useful could such submarines be if they are not on nuclear propulsion?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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xav
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

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Russian Navy Udaloy I-class ASW Destroyer Marshal Shaposhnikov to Receive Kalibr Missiles
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The 'Marshal Shaposhnikov' Project 1155 large anti-submarine warfare (ASW) ship being upgraded at JSC Dalzavod Ship Repairing Center will get the ability to use Kalibr cruise, anti-ship and anti-submarine guided missiles, the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) writes in its official blog quoting the Dalzavod`s acquisition plan for 2017 published online.
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... siles.html

abc123
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

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xav wrote:Russian Navy Udaloy I-class ASW Destroyer Marshal Shaposhnikov to Receive Kalibr Missiles
Image
The 'Marshal Shaposhnikov' Project 1155 large anti-submarine warfare (ASW) ship being upgraded at JSC Dalzavod Ship Repairing Center will get the ability to use Kalibr cruise, anti-ship and anti-submarine guided missiles, the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) writes in its official blog quoting the Dalzavod`s acquisition plan for 2017 published online.
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... siles.html
Modernising a 32 years old ship? :o :shock: :?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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WhitestElephant
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by WhitestElephant »

To keep them in service for another 30 years the article states :!:
Though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are. - Lord Tennyson (Ulysses)

Smokey
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by Smokey »

USS Enterprise served for 50 years and in theory, could have gone on longer?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Smokey wrote:USS Enterprise served for 50 years
Our Hermes beat that by a good margin (10%), albeit in foreign service
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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SKB
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by SKB »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Smokey wrote:USS Enterprise served for 50 years
Our Hermes beat that by a good margin (10%), albeit in foreign service
HMS Victory beats ALL other ships. Been commissioned since 1778 - 239 years.

LordJim
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by LordJim »

If Russian doesn't spend resources keeping its old larger warships relevant, it becomes a small frigate/corvette navy with regards to surface vessels.

abc123
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by abc123 »

WhitestElephant wrote:To keep them in service for another 30 years the article states :!:
Epic fail.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

abc123
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by abc123 »

LordJim wrote:If Russian doesn't spend resources keeping its old larger warships relevant, it becomes a small frigate/corvette navy with regards to surface vessels.
So, what do you think about refurbishment and modernisation of 2 Kirov's?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

LordJim wrote: becomes a small frigate/corvette navy with regards to surface vessels.
That is already happening. Where is Pjetr Velikiye? Did she go into dock (where she was built) straight after the "parade"? Is it the (only) other sister ship that will be taking the turn now (soon)?

The next major class will be 8 kt, not 10 kt as with the PLAN. The carrier will become an aviation training ship, with the follow-on coming in the 2030's (the earliest).

This is all very regrettable, as the best thing would be for Russia (like Germany, in its day) to misdirect its resources to ships that ca never really be used for any real purpose.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Smokey
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by Smokey »

Russia opens the new northern trade shipping route.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-41037071

abc123
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by abc123 »

https://navaltoday.com/2017/08/24/check ... ing-craft/

A bit underarmed IMHO ( better to have larger caliber stabilised RWS, say 25 mm and two of them instead of manually operated 7,62 mm machine guns ) and a ripoff of Swedish Strb90, what do you think?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

abc123 wrote:a ripoff of Swedish Strb90, what do you think?
A copy is being produced https://militaryarms.ru/wp-content/uplo ... x194-c.jpg in St. Pete, so no need to choose, when you can have both ;)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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xav
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by xav »

Speaking of under armed... this on the other hand...

Krylov Center presents concept corvette Briz at Army-2017
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The focus in the development of the advanced corvette Briz (Breeze) was placed on the optimization of the corvette’s seaworthiness, including through various ship stabilization means. As a result of the Krylov Center’s efforts, the corvette, with a very moderate displacement, carries extremely powerful weapons for this type of ships consisting of 24 universal vertical launchers for surface-to-surface missiles, as well as 16 vertical launchers for longer-range surface-to-air missiles (SAM) and 32 - for short-range SAMs, the Zvezda TV channel reported.
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... -2017.html

Construction of two Project 11356 frigates, laid down for Russian Navy, to be completed for India
The construction of two Project 11356 frigates, initially laid at the Yantar shipyard for the Black Sea Fleet, will be completed for India, reported to TASS Igor Ponomaryov, the United Shipbuilding Corporation vice-president for defense production.
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... india.html

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

xav wrote: Krylov Center presents concept corvette Briz at Army-2017
Let's buy some... the best way to deprive the Red Fleet of fighting power :)

In 2015 (when Ukraine, surprisingly, stopped turbine deliveries) some real rust buckets were pulled in for refitting and only now entering service, instead of the intended classes that will complete only in the mid '20s: http://mil.today/2017/Weapons1/
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Zapad script is starting to deviate from what had been informed:
NF: 40 ships, vessels
BF: 70 ships, vessels#barentssea #balticsea (*)
reported leaving port (when to the North of St. Pete was supposedly not going to be part of the exercise. Equally true :) as the notified strength of 12.700 - when 13.000+ would require inviting observers).

Even more interestingly a similar number of VDV have been flown to the extreme North (well, still to the South of Murmansk) as what the US sent from Italy to the Baltic states.
EDIT: Looks like (using the Russian yandex search engine) the same saboteurs that were beaten back, from taking the Kaliningrad navy base in the early August, are trying again (Murmansk). However, the Pskov pre-Zapad exercise was clearly offensive and designed to intimidate Estonia (just over the border):
"In the course of a week, Russia managed to carry out significant exercises in both the Pskov and Kaliningrad oblasts. Both areas border NATO countries. The scale of both exercises — 2,000 people and 2,500 people, respectively — is close to what Russia claims will be deployed to Belarus during the Zapad 2017 exercises: 3,000 Russian troops alongside 10,000 Belarusian ones."


Another deviation: Southern areas will be put under "martial law" to test whether the new National Guard is any good, meaning that one military command could be practically emptied of regular troops, to reinforce another area... no Western source has reported this one yet... we will see.

-----------------
(*) Hope this lot manages the snap inspection better than the previous "commander of the Baltic fleet, chief of staff of the fleet and a number of officials for serious lapses in military training, as well as the distortion in the reports of the real state of Affairs barred the defence Minister from duty. They are presented for removal from posts and dismissal from military service"
when the inspection system was changed:
"Previously, such a [Inspecting] Commission would come to any of the fleets from the main command of the Navy, which was interested in how to hide the revealed shortcomings within his own Department. However, as a result of reforms Serdyukov–Makarova Navy lost such independence and the Commission could consist of employees and officers that are not related to the Guild, [of] naval solidarity. Now the [I.C.] obeys the [Joint] command of the Western district"
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: Is it the (only) other sister ship that will be taking the turn now (soon)?
- answering my own question, looks like the other heavy missile cruiser will be available in 2020; by that time could be the only one (again)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

The more I think about it, why would it be worthwhile to demonstrate that a 100+ k troops can be concentrated in one go, e.g. by
"Another deviation: Southern areas will be put under "martial law" to test whether the new National Guard is any good, meaning that one military command (Districts are now Commands, to emphasise the jointness in their character)could be practically emptied of regular troops, to reinforce another area"

Well, the Western District despite being strategic and by far the most powerful, does not have that many troops after all. Estimates vary, put to paint the picture:
250 000 - 400 000 total strength
However, of the under 50 Hi-readiness bdes, 36 are in the area
Another "however" is , however, that the Ukraine action that was meant to be Quick&Dirty has stretched out in time, and permanently ties up 40 000 of the best troops (and another 40k as the rotation means build up/ training before and rest after)... so what does that do to readiness in, or for, all other geographies?
So, the role of the Central District, which in the days of a conscript army provided the manpower reserve, seems to have morphed in such a way that the deployments to other districts would now radiate straight out of the "Center", ie. the Western District

Planes are easier to move, leaving the bomber force out (their foremost role is an ASuW role in support of the navy) and the total strength is only 180 air superiority/ air defence fighters and 100 A2G planes of modern standard.

And leaving the Northern Fleet out (essentially a Second Strike force) the Baltic fleet does not average above 2 in availability for any of the major categories: Destroyers, frigates, subs
- though one should note that the missiles onboard of the newest corvettes are quite potent, so keeping a count of that category, separate from the old coastal vessels, would be worthwhile

We are now in September, so we will soon see.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

After the PAK_FA/ Su-57 order was cut to twelve (on top of the test a/c), hot on the heels comes the cut for Armatas:

" © Valeriy Sharifulin/TASS

KUBINKA, August 24. /TASS/. The Russian Defense Ministry will receive 100 Armata main battle tanks, Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov said at the Army-2017 international military technical forum on Thursday.

"The designed models are currently undergoing operation testing. We have a contract for 100 units that will be supplied before 2020," he said.

In 2015, former Uralvagonzavod’s CEO Oleg Sienko reported that the Russian Defense Ministry would receive 2,300 Armata tanks before 2020.
- some public monies were received, in anticipation for such an order (interested folks can look upthread for the sums, not insubstantial)

Defense contractors are finalizing the Kurganets-25 medium tracked platform and the Armata heavy tracked combat platform, considering the remarks voiced by Russia’s Defense Ministry while further work is proceeding on schedule, Industry and Trade Minister Denis Manturov told TASS."

Additionally, from different sources, the Kurganets-25 turrets in photos show up not just as the impressive new one, but also the budget version designed for upgrading BMP-2s and MTLBs.

"We are working jointly with the Defense Ministry of Russia under the Armata and Kurganets-25 projects. The customer voiced some remarks. [ Like: we used to have resilient tanks, but this Xmas tree would be inoperable after any hits from AB rounds from 30/40 mm guns that abound in other armies, on their IFVs?] As of now, a detailed analysis has been held jointly with enterprises and chief designers and the completion of works has been planned"


More:
http://tass.com/defense/961838
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

abc123
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by abc123 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: In 2015, former Uralvagonzavod’s CEO Oleg Sienko reported that the Russian Defense Ministry would receive 2,300 Armata tanks before 2020.

These numbers were obviously unrealistic from the start, more in category of pipe dreams... ;)
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:"MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Serial production of Russia's state-of-the-art Armata tanks is scheduled to begin next year, the head of Uralvagonzavod (UVZ) machine building company said Tuesday.

"This will be next — 2018 — year, but we need to cut back tests," UVZ CEO Oleg Sienko told reporters.

The Russian Defense Ministry unveiled Armata tank at the May 9 Victory Day military parade in Moscow in 2015."

However, up to 2014 the company, producing not just tanks but rolling stock, was headed for bankruptcy. That was averted (for the sake of that forthcoming Victory Day parade) by the following tactics:

"One of the first who has already begun to "download" the money from the budget allocation under the pretext of state guarantees was the general director of "Uralvagonzavod" Oleg Sienko.Tak October 8, 2014 it was reported that the leadership of the corporation "Uralvagonzavod" asked the Russian government to provide enterprises state guarantees for loans in the amount of 35-50 billion rubles.

Siyenko "cover up" the federal program?

But what are "Uralvagonzavod" much needed additional 50 billion rubles? !! According to the most Siyenko these additional funds are necessary for the enterprise implementation of the federal program (OP) "Development of the military-industrial complex of the Russian Federation until 2020".
Did not need to roll far back to see how much has been pocketed for the difference between the smoke-and-mirrors 2300 units and the real, all 100 units. Obviously, the army has some say, too, because they wanted a full redesign; not to cut back tests.

RE: the above " obviously unrealistic and a pipe-dream"
- yes, smoke screen for some not insubstantial public monies disappearing
- unrealistic, but good propaganda value (actually producing the shoot-in-the-foot effect as dormant Western tanks projects have been reactivated/ accelerated)
- Wunder Waffe tanks and stealth ;) fighters disappearing. the carrier de facto inactivated (and replacement somewhere in the 30's if at all) ... other than the army and SF "kontraktniki" who constitute a real capability increase, most of the stuff pushed in the press and "other publishing fora" seems to count as a mirage (either disappears altogether, or is just behind the next sand dune)

The mirage in this case is the next oil price rise, bailing out the finances of a middle size economy that has the appetite for weapons of a superpower... the planning assumptions may have been adjusted after this story broke:
" reflects the many changes Shell and its competitors have made in response to dramatic shifts in markets over the past few years. Oil boomed, peaking near $150 a barrel, then within two years went bust, down to the $30s, and is now hovering around $50. “We are getting fit for the $40s, with the way we are going,” Van Beurden said, referring to oil prices. Shell is operating under the assumption that crude will be “lower forever,” he said
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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WhitestElephant
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by WhitestElephant »

Russia cannot keep its soviet era kit going forever. How long until it ends up with armed forces of a similar size to Western European countries?
Though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are. - Lord Tennyson (Ulysses)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

A good question.

In tanks the Armata seems to be ending up the "quality" T-80 way.
So the quantity will be providedby T-72B3s and the quality by T-90Ss.
- put the two together, and it is quite a number

However, ships and planes are "disappearing from the radar" and the replacements are struggling (both in quality and against any planned - not propagandistic - quantities).
- the navy, other than being the second strike force (just like our Dreadnoughts) will turn into a coastal one

The huge push (and now the US is, belatedly, responding) of rejuvenating the nuclear arsenal takes a third of the defence budget.

The army has about reached the target of 40% of the man power being "kontraktniki". But that translates in most brigades (leave the VDV and the like aside) to just one Bn being at readiness and the rest are training organisations. Hence the units that have been rotated thru Ukraine/ its borders have been drawn from all over Russia - all the way from Vladivostok!

So the rational way would be to reduce the army to that third, relieve the funding pressures for other services... and first and foremost, stop using the armed forces as a recreational drug (not just to the excitement of the ruling elite, but for the "us and them" propaganda that so far has kept a good part of the population supportive of the regime - A regime that squanders the nation's wealth and pilfers what is left).
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

abc123
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Re: Russian Armed Forces

Post by abc123 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
RE: the above " obviously unrealistic and a pipe-dream"
- yes, smoke screen for some not insubstantial public monies disappearing
- unrealistic, but good propaganda value (actually producing the shoot-in-the-foot effect as dormant Western tanks projects have been reactivated/ accelerated)
- Wunder Waffe tanks and stealth ;) fighters disappearing. the carrier de facto inactivated (and replacement somewhere in the 30's if at all) ... other than the army and SF "kontraktniki" who constitute a real capability increase, most of the stuff pushed in the press and "other publishing fora" seems to count as a mirage (either disappears altogether, or is just behind the next sand dune)
Agreed.

IMHO, it isn't even the price of crude oil that's holding Russia back. It's more because of oil many/all nececarry reforms ( reduction of coruption, better public administration, free courts etc. ) were not made, so even if Russia has better oil price and without sanctions, I would still think that they will have to adress these issues sooner or later if they want real progress anywhere, including the military.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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