Section Infantry Weapons

[ArmChairCivvy]

Firearmsblog reposted this US Army notice
" It will combine the firepower and range of a machine gun with the precision and ergonomics of a carbine, yielding capability improvements in accuracy, range, and lethality. The weapon will be lightweight and fire lightweight ammunition with improved lethality." relating to the replacement for SAW.

After the first sentence I was sure they were talking about the semi-auto for Lapua Magnum, but clearly not (reading the 2nd sentence)
- quite a hat trick if someone manages to produce such a combo?

[Tinman]

the UOR for a DMR

- was anything chosen? Is this how the Maximis came along, on the side of the Minimis?

the increased use of the GPMG in the light role

- has there been a "patrol" MG ever since the Swedes scrapped their universal use of 6.5?

The UOR for the DMR is widely reported along whith the weapons on trial, funnily enough the SCARH and M417 failed to meet the requirements.

Anyone who says the 5.56mm doesnt have the stopping power hasnt been on the recieving end of one.

[marktigger]

7.62x51 is well documented as succeeding where 5.56x45 fails and that stretches back to the 1960's

[Timmymagic]

In recent conflicts, many of those who have carried and used either the L85a2 or M16 varients did not see, the person or persons they were shooting at.

Well documented.

There is also a reason the M417 failed the UOR for DMR.

Quite. And it was the same for WW1 and WW2. By the end of WW2 a lot of the infantry regarded their role as toting ammo and mags for the section Bren gun. Plenty of infantry hardly fired their rifles but would use up all their ammo from feeding the Bren mags. Which makes the UK's slowness at adopting areas weapons like 40mm grenade launchers, and the constant battles at retaining 51 and 60mm mortars all the more perplexing.

[Tinman]

In recent conflicts, many of those who have carried and used either the L85a2 or M16 varients did not see, the person or persons they were shooting at.

Well documented.

There is also a reason the M417 failed the UOR for DMR.

Quite. And it was the same for WW1 and WW2. By the end of WW2 a lot of the infantry regarded their role as toting ammo and mags for the section Bren gun. Plenty of infantry hardly fired their rifles but would use up all their ammo from feeding the Bren mags. Which makes the UK's slowness at adopting areas weapons like 40mm grenade launchers, and the constant battles at retaining 51 and 60mm mortars all the more perplexing.

I recall one of my training Sargents at kranditz telling us they had M79 on issue for Op Banner.

[Tinman]

7.62x51 is well documented as succeeding where 5.56x45 fails and that stretches back to the 1960's

The 5.56mmx45 succeds in where the 7.62mm fails also.

[ArmChairCivvy]

7.62x51 is well documented as succeeding where 5.56x45 fails and that stretches back to the 1960's

The 5.56mmx45 succeds in where the 7.62mm fails also.

A lot of information there, for the others to take up the baton (a discussion forum, this, I believe?) and carry on with the , err, discussion

[Tinman]

7.62x51 is well documented as succeeding where 5.56x45 fails and that stretches back to the 1960's

The 5.56mmx45 succeds in where the 7.62mm fails also.

A lot of information there, for the others to take up the baton (a discussion forum, this, I believe?) and carry on with the , err, discussion

?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Facts, emotions and cryptic statements are all very well, but neither of the last two can carry the discussion forward on their own.

[marktigger]

care to elaborate Tin man where 5.56mm has been more successful at stopping an enemy than 7.62x51?

[mr.fred]

One could cite the lower weight and recoil of the smaller round as being factor that make it more likely to score a hit at decisive combat ranges and providing more opportunities to do so for a given combat load.
A .22LR that hits is infinitely more lethal than a .50cal that misses.

[ArmChairCivvy]

I would like to contribute some reading materials on the topic at hand (mr. freds argument is of course valid, but the counter is that an infantryman can only have one [main] weapon and it will have to be "good enough" on all occasions):

US Army developing a bullet that can pierce 5.56 ... - Business Insider
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-army ... mm-resista...
May 26, 2017 - "We know we have developed a bullet that can penetrate these new plates,” Army Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Milley told the Senate on Thursday.
►
US Army chief: The infantry needs a new 7.62 mm rifle - Business Insider
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-army- ... -rifle-201...
May 25, 2017 - US Army chief: The infantry needs a new 7.62 mm rifle ... Lt. Gen. Mark Milley speaks to the media outside of an entrance to the Fort Hood military base.AP ... Angus King, I-Maine, asked if the new bullet will require a new rifle.

Army to gunmakers: Show us a new 7.62 mm ... - Business Insider
www.businessinsider.com/[b]army-to-gunmakers-show-us[/b]-a-new-762-mm-service-rifle-...
[AND WE WILL SHOW YOU THE MONEY]
Jun 3, 2017 - The request comes in the wake of Army Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Milley telling lawmakers Congress last week that the M4 Carbine's current ... Milley told lawmakers the Army might not require a new rifle since weapons can be ... in addition to a new lower receiver to shoot 7.62mm ammo, experts maintain.

[Timmymagic]

I recall one of my training Sargents at kranditz telling us they had M79 on issue for Op Banner.

Indeed they did, my dad got his hands on one once. They were in the armouries for some time (might even still be there). Supply of rounds for training wasn't very good though.

[jimthelad]

We had them in 95 and 98. They were in the armoury and several more miraculously appeared along with the 203 kits for the C5. We went up to Ft George to the long range for a fun day scaring seagulls. We had one 79 per section with the grenadier carrying a MP5 in 95 and the L85A1 short barrel in 98.

[marktigger]

M79 had been kicking round since Borneo. was have heard rumours of a gunner unit having an ND with one on the Border in S Armagh

[ArmChairCivvy]

Horses and courses...

then: M79 [even] in recent years, due to its greater accuracy and range compared to the M203 (350m effective versus 150 m effective on the M203).
- single shot, but luggable

now: HK's GMG operates from an open bolt, with a rate of fire of approximately 350 rounds per minute and a range of over 1500 meters.
- 34 per belt, but heavy as hell (hail a taxi in urban fighting?)

[Timmymagic]

M79 had been kicking round since Borneo. was have heard rumours of a gunner unit having an ND with one on the Border in S Armagh

Are they still in the armouries? Can't imagine most have had many rounds fired through them, and there doesn't appear to be much to go wrong with them. There was talk that some people preferred them to 203's, not sure if the H & K UGL has changed that view though. You'd think that retaining it for specific circumtances would make sense.

[Tinman]

care to elaborate Tin man where 5.56mm has been more successful at stopping an enemy than 7.62x51?

recoil, for starters, then you have the fact you can carry more rounds. Oh and accuracy. I am talking about your run of the mill infateer, hitting what he shoots at, whilst under contact. A lot of people who post about the L85a2 being shit, 5.56 being equally shit have never been exposed to the joys of a two way range in Sangin.

Body Armour, EcM, PRR, bateries, link for the GPMG, water, bit of food, cold gear if in winter, the. You have your own weapon and ammunition to carry. Oh then theres more link.

[marktigger]

sangin is only one battlefield Tinman

I know of at least 3 incidents where 7.62 has out performed 5.56 both at range and at close quarters. The recoil case is over stated have seen fairly slightly built girls handle 7.662 with no problems. Spoken personally to a gunner who was more than happy the infantry company he was with had SLR when one of his FOO teams M16's failed after 10 rounds to stop a charging NVA after multiple hits one double tap from an SLR stopped him.

[LordJim]

I think we are going to have to strike a balance with rifle calibre and accept that we are going to use both types. Both have their advantages and disadvantages but they more importantly compliment each other. At closer ranger and CQB the 5.56 is both effective and convenient, but fire teams need to reach out and pin an opponent at longer ranges whist other close. To that end the adoption of the light weight 7.62 Minimi Mk3 to replace the existing 5.56 Minimi Para and the ever faithful MAG would go some way to achieving a balance. This would also allow fire teams to replace the 7.62 Sharpshooter rifle. Yes the team would be carrying additional belts/Bags of 7.62 to feed the MG, but the benefits of having a harder hitting 7.62 weapon as the teams fire base easily compensate for this. This makes far more sense that trying to find the magical intermediate round which would require a total inventory replacement with untested weapons. The Minimi is proven in all forms, we have the armourers and logistics in place at all levels. the cost in the grand scheme of things would be small, needing 2-3000 initially to equip frontline units in all three services down to fire team level.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Body Armour

The link to what the US Army chief said on this has a revelation: the OpFor have them, too!

fire teams need to reach out and pin an opponent at longer ranges whist other close. To that end the adoption of the light weight 7.62 Minimi Mk3

- agreed, fire team sizes of 3-4 can accommodate that
- if placed at the next level up, there would need to be two, but then the trick still is to have them in the right place, at the right time

There were no comments to my question about what would constitute a "modern-day" patrol MG; here we got the answer.

[mr.fred]

sangin is only one battlefield Tinman

I know of at least 3 incidents where 7.62 has out performed 5.56 both at range and at close quarters. The recoil case is over stated have seen fairly slightly built girls handle 7.662 with no problems. Spoken personally to a gunner who was more than happy the infantry company he was with had SLR when one of his FOO teams M16's failed after 10 rounds to stop a charging NVA after multiple hits one double tap from an SLR stopped him.

So you can cherry pick incidents where the 7.62 has already overcome its limitations to do what it's good at?
Plus anecdotal evidence is always a bit suspect, what with all the unconscious bias going on.
That said if went looking for terms such as "hit the target with a rapid follow up shot" or "nearly ran out of ammunition" you might find anecdotes for the benefits of 5.56mm, even if they are not identified as such.

[Tinman]

sangin is only one battlefield Tinman

I know of at least 3 incidents where 7.62 has out performed 5.56 both at range and at close quarters. The recoil case is over stated have seen fairly slightly built girls handle 7.662 with no problems. Spoken personally to a gunner who was more than happy the infantry company he was with had SLR when one of his FOO teams M16's failed after 10 rounds to stop a charging NVA after multiple hits one double tap from an SLR stopped him.

Whats the source?

You are mixing the performance of the L85a2 with the various M16.

Lets agree to disagree over a close to a 20 year deployment service I have neve felt the need to have a7.62mm assault rifle.

Indeed over the last 10 years my compound clearing would have been much easier if I had an automatic shotgun.

We disagree and lets be professional about thos and take it to PM.

[marktigger]

source former RA/RNZA officer.
agree on automatic shotgun

though how small can you make a 7.62

[Gabriele]

I see the MOD signed a contract for Dismounted Close Combat weapons and ancillaries support which includes "L130A1 7.62mm LMG". I guess we are talking of the UOR "maxi-Minimi". Were the options (250 options were included in the UOR order for 176 back in 2011) exercised? How are they employed now?

Also, i see the L110 now is A3. What changes were rolled in?