Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Dahedd]

Absolutely.

[marktigger]

so the argument starts about guns on the Type 31 again
Donald is proposing that type 45 & Type 26 could be chopped from the escort force for the CBG or ARG to provide NGS. These ships in a warzone are going to be a tad busy being the bulk of the AAW &ASW force. He contends that with costs the smaller cheaper gun is better and sacrificing the capability.
I would suggest that unless the Type 31 is the BaE design and exclusive contract there will be NO savings from Type 26 and more probable overruns to try and eliminate the Type 31 budget or force the MoD to order BaE's offering.

[shark bait]

it depends what it doing, if its a GP frigate it probably needs a capable gun, if its an ASW frigate it could be skipped.

You make NGFS sound a bigger deal than it is, in our last two amphibious operations the Royal Navy fired less than 300 rounds in total. That is well within the capability of the 8 big guns with have on the T26.

It's a vital task, but not something we require a vast capacity for, the T26 pretty much has it covered, and is a highly survivable platform enabling it to sit close enough to shore to be effective. One of the reasons why I say the T26 is already the perfect GP frigate, take advantage of that by making the T31 ASW, allowing the T26 to be the multi mission global combat ship the RN needs. The Venator certainly isn't going to do that.

[marktigger]

given that expeditionary warfare is high up the priorities list NGS is a very important part of supporting that. And if the T26 is the main ASW platform and the T45 the primary AAW platform prising them out of the escort group for other things is going to be very hard as there are to few already.

[ArmChairCivvy]

prising them out of the escort group for other things is going to be very hard as there are to few already.

This fact seems to get forgotten in the design vs design musings, and then costing them for further comparison.

[marktigger]

in recent operations How much ASW work has the royal Navy had to do or AAW?

[Engaging Strategy]

in recent operations How much ASW work has the royal Navy had to do or AAW?

An enormous amount, considering ASW and AAW activities do not begin and end with the firing of a missile/torpedo.

[marktigger]

in recent operations How much ASW work has the royal Navy had to do or AAW?

An enormous amount, considering ASW and AAW activities do not begin and end with the firing of a missile/torpedo.[/quote

in recent operations How much ASW work has the royal Navy had to do or AAW?

An enormous amount, considering ASW and AAW activities do not begin and end with the firing of a missile/torpedo.

evidence please?

[marktigger]

in recent operations How much ASW work has the royal Navy had to do or AAW?

An enormous amount, considering ASW and AAW activities do not begin and end with the firing of a missile/torpedo.[/quote

in recent operations How much ASW work has the royal Navy had to do or AAW?

An enormous amount, considering ASW and AAW activities do not begin and end with the firing of a missile/torpedo.

evidence please?

who's subs are they tracking of Libya, Somalia, Possibly Iranian in gulf? Actual operations not cold war posturing

[Gabriele]

Fact: submarines are an enormous worry today as they were years ago. When a decrepit libyan Foxtrot position became unknown for a brief moment during operations in 2011, things are said to have gotten pretty tense.

You have a very particular idea of "actual operations", too. Is any "actual operation" going on in Somalia...? I don't think so.

[ArmChairCivvy]

You have a very particular idea of "actual operations", too. Is any "actual operation" going on in Somalia...? I don't think so

A police operation; seen from the POV of the rest of the world. Of course it is deadly serious for the Kenyans who out of the kindness of their hearts gave shelter to huge numbers of Somalis (including plenty of the rogue ones mixed in).

[Gabriele]

Something of no relevance whatsoever to what should shape the Royal Navy and the ships it uses.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Ahh... but we did send a BV ashore for the RM to fetch some tribal chief for negotiations onboard a HMS xyz; have the amphibs ever been there as part of the multinational TF, or otherwise?

A quarter of a century after having had a logistics problem in withdrawing their peace keeping force from Somalia, the germans are still dilly-dallying as to which design should it be for such a vessel (there have been many good ones, but perhaps the tax payers willingness to pay for babysitting some warloards is wearing a bit thin?)

[donald_of_tokyo]

In 3:34, the guy says the towed receiver of CAPTAS4CI is shorter than those used in CAPTAS-4.
The image at 2:16 even shows that the towed array barrel is based on CAPTAS-1 not CAPTAS-2 (although this does not directly mean the towed receiver array is based on CAPTAS-1).

Anyway, CAPTAS-4CI does sacrifice something compared to CAPTAS-4 itself. (But still designed to be powerful than CAPTAS-2, I guess).

[shark bait]

Sounds good to me.

Adding a towed sonar will not be cheap, but neither is adding the mission bay, Mk41 & 5″ gun, required to make a valuable GP frigate. At least with the new generation of compact sonars we could buy thee systems and share between six platforms, diluting the cost. That way you can keep you're expensive systems on they platforms that are actually at sea, perhaps two at sea, and one in transition for example.

Admittedly only by my guesstimates, it looks like 3 sonar sets is a cheaper way forward than 6 mission bay’s, 18 Mk41 silo’s & 6 big gun’s.

[seaspear]

Is the capability of detecting"narco subs" a requirement?

[donald_of_tokyo]

Egyptian Navy’s first Gowind corvette sail for sea trials

It is a corvette, not a frigate.

The corvette will have a length of 102m, beam of 16m, depth of 5.4m and displacement of 2,500t. It can complement a crew of 65 and 15 special forces.... The corvettes will be armed with an OTO Melara 76mm main gun, two Nexter Narwhal 20mm cannons, a vertical launch system (VLS) for 16 VL Mica surface-to-air missiles, eight MBDA MM40 Exocet anti-ship missile launchers and two triple torpedo launchers.
The onboard sensors and radars will include a 3D radar, electronic support measures (ESM) suite, a hull-mounted sonar, a variable depth sonar (VDS) and a fire control system....The Gowind® 2500 will be powered by combined diesel and electric propulsion system. The power-plant will provide a maximum speed of more than 25kt. The corvette can attain a range of 4,000 nautical miles (nm) at 15kt speed.
(Naval Technology: http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... -corvette/)

The VDS is CAPTAS-2, if the wiki is correct.

Apart from the hull design itself, interestingly, its sensor mast and CIC is integrated independently from the hull, and added later. I think it is innovative approach.

From wiki, it is a 1B Euro contract for 4 hulls.

[marktigger]

yes something like this to replace the river II would be ideal

[dmereifield]

Doesn't cost too much more than we paid for them either....
Would be happy if the T31 is equipped with equivalent UK kit

[donald_of_tokyo]

yes something like this to replace the river II would be ideal

RN anyway needs 4-5 OPV as lightly armed as River B1 or B2. They are "must". A corvette like this is rather a candidate to replace T31 program. Short-legged corvette to be stationed over-sea, for example.

Doesn't cost too much more than we paid for them either....
Would be happy if the T31 is equipped with equivalent UK kit

As mentioned many times in this thread, the cost of export corvette is cheap because;
- ship build/damage control standard is lower than RN want
- range is shorter than RN want (may be we need 5500 nm, 35 days)
- living standard is lower than RN want
as I understand.

But, we can surely learn from these exported vessels from its building technology
- Dutch OPV has sensor-integrated mast. This integrated mast/CIC component idea is innovative I think. Can we introduce it in T31?
- Their build schedule is very fast, and its integrated mast/CIC component was one of the key for it. Can we introduce it in T31?
- How they regard the ASW. Gowing 2500 series mentions about ASW frequently. There CODOE or CODLAG propulsion also is adopted for ASW. Surely, they cannot replace T23/T26. But, I "hope", if they are "so so good ASW in international standard", it can be regarded as GP (= GP includes ASW) for RN.

For me, just enlarge the hull to 4000t FL, enlarge range/endurance, replace 16 SeaMICA with 24 CAMM, 3inG with 5in G, a little enlarged flight deck and hangar, makes it perfect T31. (Merlin capable hangar can be regarded as a Wildcat hangar + small mission bay).

[marktigger]

Donald if the River II is meant to be carrying out overseas missions a shortlegged corvette would be a better more capable idea more capable of reinforcing type 45, 26 & 31 instead of a ver lightly armed patrol vessel that needs more protection for little advantage

[donald_of_tokyo]

Donald if the River II is meant to be carrying out overseas missions a shortlegged corvette would be a better more capable idea more capable of reinforcing type 45, 26 & 31 instead of a ver lightly armed patrol vessel that needs more protection for little advantage

I do not agree. FIGS is very similar to "overseas", but no need to carry heavy (expensive & man-power intensive ) armaments. Somalia operation can be done with OPV, also no need for heavy armament. Med operation, as well. Key point is, there are many operations which do not need heavy armaments, and for those tasks, heavy armaments is just a "manpower & cost drain" or "waste", casting negative impacts on other assets. Thus, need for lightly armed vessels will never disappear. So River class OPVs are critically useful assets to UK. How many hulls do you need, is another story, and need for heavily armed escorts will never disappear either. Two are different, and both are needed.

[marktigger]

Donald yes I partially agree except if you make FGS take on more responsibility like into southern Africa it may not need to carry SAMS or SSM at all times but having wildcat in its FGS role would be useful and if its needed to operate of southern africa the capability is useful. It also gives Surge capability to reinforce other units.
Looking at ops of somalia fine a river 2 is capable but again a corvette gives surge capability, self protection, Wildcat in the region into the gulf or round red sea and given the experience of the USN of Yemen it having the capability to look after it self means increased flexibility. Same with WIGS, wildcat, good air search capability and sub search capability. Even if not deploying wildcat then the hanger gives space for humanitarian aid packages. And in UK waters it gives enhanced surveilance and surge capability along with wildcat capability.

[Repulse]

I do not see the need for the UK to invest in building an export corvette to similar configurations to other designs from other countries already flooding the market.

Short legged Corvette type ships are interesting, and could be of use as ASW ships in the UK EEZ, but the RN needs to be significantly better funded to make this an option for global presence. Better to stick to fewer "global cruisers" (DDs/FFs) partnering with Commonwealth / EU / US allies as needed.

[Repulse]

The RN should be looking at a "ever evolving" design for a utility warship starting with the River class building in batches of 8 ships between each design iteration at a rate of 1.5 per year (to 36 ships). This would be close to the original MHPC concept.

The design would need to be able to be upgraded for use as a secondary escort in war conditions. However, given that even Pirates/ Drug Smugglers/ Terrorists are getting more sophisticated with the use of UAVS, RPGS, Fast Attack Craft and Submersibles - it needs to have a weaponry and sensors appropriate to tackle these. It also needs to have long legs as well as being able to be forward based.

Forget the T31, do this and build another 4 T26s and we still would have a navy worth talking about.