Project Crowsnest (RN)

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Good news, abt the same (inflation adjusted) as what was paid for the airframes in the first place.

Totally apart from the topic, but as H Baldwin PR team fitted it in, so will I:
"dredging of the harbour to accommodate the carriers’ vast size, including the removal of over three million cubic meters of clay, sand and gravel
debris already cleared includes unexploded ordnance"
- so the first time around, a good job was done; warships sitting v close to those unexploded ones?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Ron5
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

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marktigger wrote:had heard at BBC SW there was investment comming at yeovil wasn't sure what
Most of the work will be done elsewhere.

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Ron5 »

dmereifield wrote:Deal just announced

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/crow ... ed-uk-jobs
A whole pack of weasels wrote this BS.

Particularly enjoyed the "innovative solution" to providing the radar with 360 view. Pretty sure the bag was invented nearly 40 years ago.

No mention of how many actual Crowsnest kits. I'm assuming a lot less than needed. Say 3 or 4. Which would be the reason for the re-bid.

But hey, didn't make a dent in the 178 billion new equipment plan that dear Harriet loves to wave around.

marktigger
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

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Ron5 wrote:
marktigger wrote:had heard at BBC SW there was investment comming at yeovil wasn't sure what
Most of the work will be done elsewhere.
yeap but yeovil will be where the modification work needed will be done to the helicopters.. the money for lenardo helicopters cam out on BBC SW on Sunday before the announcement of the rest

PAUL MARSAY
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by PAUL MARSAY »

will we have 4 ready for 2018 ?

marktigger
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by marktigger »

i would say aircraft wise yes

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xav
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by xav »

Didn't realize there was a dedicated thread:
xav wrote:Thales press release.... I am still strying to find out how many sets will be delivered... but can't seem to reach Thales right now

Thales contracted to deliver Royal Navy's new airborne surveillance and control capability

Image
Thales and Lockheed Martin announce the contract award to deliver the Royal Navy’s new airborne surveillance and control system, under the ‘CROWSNEST’ programme. Lockheed Martin, who acts as the Ministry of Defence’s prime contractor for the Merlin helicopter, selected a new generation of the Thales Searchwater radar and Cerberus mission system to be fitted to existing Merlin Mk2s helicopters to provide the Navy with an airborne surveillance and control capability (ASaC).
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ility.html
Finally got ahold of them on the phone. Updated with:
Contacted by Navy Recognition, Thales confirmed:
10 role kits will be delivered to the Royal Navy. A role kit consists in:
- Mission subsystem including operator console
- Radar subsystem
- Radome deployment mechanism

30 Merlin Mk2 helicopters will be modified with fixed fittings to accept the role kits.

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Ron5 »

PAUL MARSAY wrote:will we have 4 ready for 2018 ?
In service 2020. So no.

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Ron5 »

Xav,
thanks for the update on Crowsnest.

The original MoD announcement made great play on how much kit would be re-used from the old Sea Kings yet your response from Thales implied all new stuff: new radar, new bag, new console. Can you reconcile the two statements?

Good news on the 10 kits. Seems a reasonable number given the financial issues.

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shark bait
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by shark bait »

10 kits for 250 million. Seams reasonable, shows the value of recycling. Only took them a decade to reach that decision.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

shark bait wrote:10 kits for 250 million
Per a/c the same as the original basic airframe, inflation adjusted. So, with no airframes to be bought
... that is 50% off?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

marktigger
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by marktigger »

with the console surely the software is what generates the image be that radar air surface, acoustic , or air to air picture. and the control interface is what? so shouldn't the operator station be fairly standard its the black boxes supplying it that need changed out

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Ron5 »

Actually you have it the wrong way round: software changes do not necessarily require "black box" changes. That's why it's called software. As it happens, some of the Merlins computers will be upgraded to be more powerful. Others will stay the same.

The AA tasks are so different from ASW, a new user interface is required and some of that interface is the consoles. Different sized monitors with different characteristic, different knobs,, switches & joysticks. It's like when you go fishing you need a rod and when you go hunting for a bear, you take a rifle. Diff tools for diff jobs.

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Ron5 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
shark bait wrote:10 kits for 250 million
Per a/c the same as the original basic airframe, inflation adjusted. So, with no airframes to be bought
... that is 50% off?
It's 250 million for upgrading 30 Mk 2's, support, spares and 10 kits, so to say 25 mill per kit is kinda dumb.

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by abc123 »

How much would it cost to buy say 8 new-built Merlins- just for this role? Any possibility that it would have been cheaper?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by bobp »

“Backed by our rising Defence budget, and our £178 billion equipment plan, coupled with our diminishing Helicopter Fleet, we have decided to effectively reduce our Merlin Fleet by 10 Airframes, providing first rate AEW coverage for our two Carriers as they sail the Worlds Oceans protecting our Sovereignty Blah ,Blah ,Blah"
Unless they radically increase defence spending soon, there wont be any Helicopters left.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Ron5 wrote:It's 250 million for upgrading 30 Mk 2's, support, spares
Err, I did not do an inflation adjustment for the original £20m per airframe x 10 makes 200
... but I did allow another 25% FOR support and spares

Thereby we arrive at 50/50 between old and new,

ABC only wants 8; I want 30... but I would be glad to see either alternative cost calculation?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by shark bait »

25 million per kit isn't dumb, because that's what it's costing to bring the system into service. It's actually more if we consider the 4 studies that preceded this one.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

shark bait wrote: if we consider the 4 studies that preceded this one
Seems that we got off lightly; how many years?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

marktigger
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

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abc123 wrote:How much would it cost to buy say 8 new-built Merlins- just for this role? Any possibility that it would have been cheaper?
then you loose the flexibility which is what this project is about having 8 AEW helicopters that can be re-roled to ASW aircraft as needed.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

marktigger wrote: this project is about having 8 AEW helicopters that can be re-roled to ASW aircraft as needed.
This project is about having 30 ASW, to rerole to AEW, almost at will , as the threat picture changes - how many hrs was the switch taking , again?
- we have discussed the other constraints, like the specialists to be available to be in the back etc , before
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

abc123
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by abc123 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
marktigger wrote: this project is about having 8 AEW helicopters that can be re-roled to ASW aircraft as needed.
This project is about having 30 ASW, to rerole to AEW, almost at will , as the threat picture changes - how many hrs was the switch taking , again?
- we have discussed the other constraints, like the specialists to be available to be in the back etc , before

Don't know why, but that reminds me on stories about QE-class carriers being easily convertible into CATOBARs... :lol:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

bobp
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by bobp »

Still think we need more Merlins.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

abc123 wrote:Don't know why
I agree with you
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Pseudo »

Would anyone really be surprised if we ended up with half a dozen Merlins permanently reroled as AEW aircraft?

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