Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

[Enigmatically]

Reading some of this, it might be just worth reminding people:

Type 45 Destroyer- >8000 tonnes
WWII Dido cruiser-<6000 tonnes

Type 23 Frigate- 4900 tonnes
WWII Captain class Frigate <1500 tonnes

When considering sea-keeping etc

[Tony Williams]

Maybe so but apart from Visual search what use is it on ship? Wildcat is better option for small vessels. Its got Radar, ELOP, ESM for searches as well as Mk1 eyeball, more comprehensive weapons fit, can do hoist SAR has space to carry small parties like boarding teams internally not stuck out on Skids.

Cost of Wildcat helicopter: £26 million

Cost of Boeing AH-6 Little Bird (optionally manned/unmanned): c.£1.4 million, plus the EO recce. pod which it is designed to carry (not just the Mk 1 eyeball!). For this type of policing duty, the 70mm rockets with SAL guidance it can carry is more than enough firepower - a .50 cal MG pod would do. Hellfires could also be carried if you really want to hit hard, and even Stinger AAM. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AH-6

But if we're going for a 60's throwback dust of the plans of the scout/wasp add in new modern engines and electronics like Hughes.

Oh come on, think about what you're saying. The Little Bird is available to purchase off the shelf. You'd effectively have to start from scratch in designing a modern version of the Scout/Wasp to meet modern industrial and military standards. It would take ten years and cost ten times as much and for what - a dozen helicopters to equip a handful of OPVs? I'm all in favour of buying British when it makes sense, but you've identified a spectacularly effective way of wasting huge sums of money...

[marktigger]

Cost of Boeing AH-6 Little Bird (optionally manned/unmanned): c.£1.4 million, plus the EO recce. pod which it is designed to carry (not just the Mk 1 eyeball!). For this type of policing duty, the 70mm rockets with SAL guidance it can carry is more than enough firepower - a .50 cal MG pod would do. Hellfires could also be carried if you really want to hit hard, and even Stinger AAM. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AH-6

really.....you have been watching to much blackhawk down!

Wildcat already fitted for Browning M3
Already fitted for Light wieght multi role missile
already fitted for Sea venom anti ship missile
already fitted for CVR 7 rockets

but can also carry sting ray anti submarine torpedo and Depth charges!

fitting hellfire not a problem there was a trials fit for lynx so the knowledge is there

but along side this you have
seaspray radar
ELOP systems
ESM

you can carry a door gunner and 6 troops
you can fit a rescue hoist
has cabin space to carry a casualty internally on a stretcher with a medic

it has 2 engines much safer for over water operations
has nearly double the range of the hughes 500
has wheels making it easier to manouver on a confined flight deck

[marktigger]

Shark Bait the danger is you end up in a type 21 situation lots of numbers of a superb looking ship that is under armed to carry out its role. With numbers now being so tight we do need highly capable ships which are going to be expensive. Look impressive for soft diplomacy etc all the arguments you put forward.

Where I see the role of a corvette/sloop is in lieu of the Offshore patrol vessel which if they are to be used in a greater role world wide need to also look a bit more impressive for port visits etc.


BTW the type 23 was designed from the outset not to be refitted so its a great tribute to the designers that they have been so successfully refitted.

[Tony Williams]

[
you can carry a door gunner and 6 troops
you can fit a rescue hoist
has cabin space to carry a casualty internally on a stretcher with a medic

it has 2 engines much safer for over water operations
has nearly double the range of the hughes 500
has wheels making it easier to manouver on a confined flight deck

I think you missed the bit about the cost - Wildcat coming in it almost twenty times the cost of the basic AH-6.

You have also missed the whole point of the OPV proposal, which is for very low-cost, peacetime policing against drug dealers, pirates and so on, in order to free up resources for serious warships. It makes no sense for it to carry a top-end war-fighting helo at extremely high cost (purchase and maintenance). You might just as well argue that the OPV should be fitted with a full war-fighting weapons suite comparable with a frigate - in which case the cost would also be comparable...

Actually, the AH-6 is probably over-militarised for the job - all that is needed is any small commercial helo capable of being fitted with an EO chin turret and a .50 cal door gun.

[marktigger]

if you look at some of the "peacetime" patrol operations an OPV can be involved in Including counter piracy, counter narcotics , counter terrorism the helicopter needs to be able to fulfil a multitude of tasks. Yes wildcat is more expensive but then so are law enforcement versions of AH6, EC135 and A109 because they have ELop systems, nitesun, etc fitted.
Using a platform like wildcat then gives you the extra capability where that platform can be used by another platform in a war or peace enforcement situation. So instead of loosing capability the ships crew already know how to use the platform and its sensor suite to best advantage. And though limited in cabin space and underslung lift it can carry more than a MD500/530 which is useful capability to have if your vessels are deployed in disaster relief ops like the WIGS vessel helps out with (Another reason we need a corvette not an OPV).
.

[Pseudo]

I'd say that the additional capabilities provided to an OPV by something like Wildcat and the necessity it creates to have a (slightly) larger fleet of Wildcats make up for what is a relatively small cost increase when compared to buying AH-6 and the extra logistics train that would require.

[marktigger]

you may not need to there are some surplus merlin airframes that could be upgraded and release wildcats to an opv fleet

[shark bait]

The wildcat is vastly superior, however it will also have a vastly enlarged logistics footprint which will be difficult to sustain on a small ship, so the small helo does have its merits, plus its cheap.

Maybe worth mentioning the Westland gazelle for the army air core may need a replacement in coming years. Its not hard to see a small optionally manned and lightly armed helo filling the gap such as the ones suggested here for naval use.

[marktigger]

i understood gazelle not being replaced wildcat meant to take over its roles

[RetroSicotte]

Gazelle's replacement is, effectively, Watchkeeper. They've said a few times thats the one they consider to be it.

[marktigger]

so we fly generals round on watch keeper like a witch on a broomstick

[Pseudo]

so we fly generals round on watch keeper like a witch on a broomstick

We've got to find something to do with the Apache's now we're out of Afghanistan.

[marktigger]

very good

[shark bait]

Gazelle's replacement is, effectively, Watchkeeper. They've said a few times thats the one they consider to be it.

I can see how that can work for many situations.

Its not yet been specified if the gazelle will or will not be replaced. Surely a light utility helicopter will be of use and offer more flexibility than watch keeper for some surveillance missions, for both army and navy.

Arent the navy interested in a system like fire scout for ops on CVF and T26 and OPV's? Surely an optionally manned light helo would find a use.

[Gabriele]

Gazelle's replacement is, effectively, Watchkeeper. They've said a few times thats the one they consider to be it.

I can see how that can work for many situations.

Its not yet been specified if the gazelle will or will not be replaced. Surely a light utility helicopter will be of use and offer more flexibility than watch keeper for some surveillance missions, for both army and navy.

Arent the navy interested in a system like fire scout for ops on CVF and T26 and OPV's? Surely an optionally manned light helo would find a use.

AgustaWestland is under contract to demonstrate the SW-4 SOLO optionally manned light helicopter on a Type 23 as a demonstrator on the way to a rotary wing UAV for shipboard ops in the 2020s.
It should happen soon. It is actually overdue, indeed... i think it has already been pushed to the right at least twice. Last i had read of it, the trial was planned for march, but it does not seem to have taken place.

[shark bait]

Thank you Gabriele that's the exact programme I had in mind, couldn't remember the name though

I hope it continues, rotary wing UAV will become very important to the RN in particular, so I think its important their is some indigenous capability.

[Tony Williams]

AgustaWestland is under contract to demonstrate the SW-4 SOLO optionally manned light helicopter on a Type 23 as a demonstrator on the way to a rotary wing UAV for shipboard ops in the 2020s.
It should happen soon. It is actually overdue, indeed... i think it has already been pushed to the right at least twice. Last i had read of it, the trial was planned for march, but it does not seem to have taken place.

Yep - that should do very nicely for OPVs...five seats, five hours endurance, optionally manned, can obviously carry sensors and costs around £500,000 for the basic helo.

[shark bait]

I could certainty advocate such a system,
Could fit a merlin and one of these onto a frogatd and also should be able to fit a retractable hanger for a small helo onto the rivers.

[marktigger]

Drones are great when there is no Electronic Warfare threat, we have total air superiority and the oponent has no air defence capability! so we can't become overly dependent on them.

[Tiny Toy]

At the risk of repeating myself, this is where the 'Black Swan' future sloop of war project should be brought forward, and looked at seriously, it does seem to fit a lot of the requirements.

Seconded. A rare attempt to build a capability for the time that will exist after it has passed assessment and been built, rather than the current time (which results in capabilities that are obsolescent by the time they see action).

[shark bait]

At the risk of repeating myself, this is where the 'Black Swan' future sloop of war project should be brought forward, and looked at seriously, it does seem to fit a lot of the requirements.

Seconded. A rare attempt to build a capability for the time that will exist after it has passed assessment and been built, rather than the current time (which results in capabilities that are obsolescent by the time they see action).

Cheap, lightly armed, commercial build, it was certainly an interesting concept.

[Tiny Toy]

Cheap, lightly armed, commercial build, it was certainly an interesting concept.

You say "was". It's currently in assessment with 3 prototypes promised, no?

[shark bait]

You say "was". It's currently in assessment with 3 prototypes promised, no?

yes as far as I am aware it was only ever a concept that hasn't been picked up.
I have certainly never heard anything of an assessment phase or demonstration phase, however I would welcome the news if it has.

[jonas]

Cheap, lightly armed, commercial build, it was certainly an interesting concept.

You say "was". It's currently in assessment with 3 prototypes promised, no?

As far as I am aware it is still somewhere on the cards, but as far as any prototypes, not heard anything about that. Apart from which I may be wrong but when have any prototypes of warships been built. We have had ships like 'Bristol' as a one off, only because any further were cancelled, then 'Triton' which was very much an experimental project, but I would think it prohibitively expensive to build a ship as such, as a project.

Are you perhaps thinking of the order that was placed some time ago, for long term items for the first three T26.