UK Defence Forum

News, History, Discussions and Debates on UK Defence.

Border Force Cutters.

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 1639
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
Location: England

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby Caribbean » 11 Jun 2016, 21:04

shark bait wrote:The cutters should be focusing on UK waters

I suspect that the use of the cutters, rather than the Rivers, is, at least in part, political. When we had Bulwark in the Med, the Italians tried to suggest that we should take everyone rescued by her as refugees in the UK, since they had effectively landed on UK sovereign territory and were thus in a safe refuge. We kept landing them in Italy, but the Italians weren't very happy and may actually have a case that everyone that Bulwark rescued was effectively "in a safe country", so they (the Italians) had a legal right to refuse to accept them as refugees. Fairly soon after, we sent the cutters, which have limited rescue capacity and would not be capable of transporting them safely back to the UK. That way, we can still claim that we are "doing something", while also ensuring that anyone rescued gets legitimately landed elsewhere.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

User avatar
Galloglass
Member
Posts: 108
Joined: 01 Apr 2016, 13:29
Location: Ireland

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby Galloglass » 12 Jun 2016, 16:47

"We're going to need a bigger boat"

User avatar
GibMariner
Senior Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: 12 May 2015, 14:17

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby GibMariner » 28 Jun 2016, 09:47

Lord West on Border Force not having enough cutters, suggests RN contribute P2000s as an emergency measure: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683826 ... el-EU-vote

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 1639
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
Location: England

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby Caribbean » 29 Jun 2016, 05:02

GibMariner wrote:Lord West on Border Force not having enough cutters, suggests RN contribute P2000s as an emergency measure: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683826 ... el-EU-vote


I love some of the phrases in that report
"watertight coastal security" - one would hope that everything was watertight
"a sudden spike in inflatable boats" - yup - that would stop them
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

User avatar
GibMariner
Senior Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: 12 May 2015, 14:17

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby GibMariner » 29 Jun 2016, 09:57

Patrol Craft:Written question - 41012

Asked by Michael Fabricant
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, if he will make an assessment of the potential merits of the use of Archer type naval vessels to augment the coast guard.

Answered by: Penny Mordaunt
The Royal Navy (RN) operates the Archer Class P2000 ships to support the activities of the University RN Units, as well as general navigation and seamanship training.
In line with the principles of Military Aid to Civil Authorities, the Ministry of Defence (MOD) assesses the suitability of various capabilities, not just the P2000 Class, to achieve an effect when support is requested by another Government Department for a specific task. The MOD continues to be involved in the Government's contingency planning activity, but currently there is no formal request for MOD to supply assets in support of the coast guard.

http://www.parliament.uk/business/publi ... -20/41012/

marktigger
Senior Member
Posts: 4599
Joined: 01 May 2015, 10:22
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby marktigger » 29 Jun 2016, 10:10

shark bait wrote:linking back to our earlier discussion Mark, this is the kind of role where endurance of a river class type is required. The cutters should be focusing on UK waters, allowing the rivers to contribute to maritime security beyond the channel in situations just like this.



they are what's available NOW not in 2-3 years time. The P2000 could be useful but given what sea conditions in the likes of the Channel/Irish Sea round the South west and the atlantic round Northern scotland And endurance along the east coast. They might have some use but like all defence you need layers.

User avatar
Ianmb17
Member
Posts: 94
Joined: 01 May 2015, 21:33
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby Ianmb17 » 03 Aug 2016, 06:30

Border force ordered eight more boats

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36960905

Four already?

Its report added: "Only four of the new vessels are currently deployed and the remaining four will not be available for more than a year."

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/natio ... fd3f549-ds

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5835
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby shark bait » 03 Aug 2016, 07:38

They're small coastal patrol RHIBs which will be based out of 4 hubs, Cornwall, Thames, Humber and another on the south coast. Its a good development but its not the extra cutters we could also do with.
@LandSharkUK

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10669
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 10 Aug 2016, 13:41

What do the Uni Sqrns' "patrol" boats do outside term time?
- not too late for a bit of Lend&Lease?
- while we wait for more of the (smaller) RHIBs

User avatar
SKB
Senior Member
Posts: 5678
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:35
Location: England

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby SKB » 10 Aug 2016, 18:24

8 rubber dinghys.... :roll:

bobp
Senior Member
Posts: 1668
Joined: 06 May 2015, 07:52
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby bobp » 10 Aug 2016, 19:55

SKB wrote:8 rubber dinghys....


Plastic ducks with little hooks on top are more useful.

Spinflight
Member
Posts: 576
Joined: 01 Aug 2016, 03:32
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby Spinflight » 10 Aug 2016, 22:27

SKB wrote:8 rubber dinghys....


Maybe it is clever reverse psychology.

"Look Abdul, you cousin was wrong! The UK cannot be the land of milk and honey, they can't even afford a steel boat!"

"You're right Ahkmed, lets head for Lithuania instead"

User avatar
Engaging Strategy
Member
Posts: 775
Joined: 20 Dec 2015, 13:45
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby Engaging Strategy » 11 Aug 2016, 00:46

ArmChairCivvy wrote:What do the Uni Sqrns' "patrol" boats do outside term time?


Deploy out of area with students aboard on flag flying missions all over the UK and Western Europe.
Blog: http://engagingstrategy.blogspot.co.uk
Twitter: @EngageStrategy1

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 10669
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 11 Aug 2016, 07:18

Redirect to the Channel?
- must consult with the Head of the Students' Union first

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 1910
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby dmereifield » 29 Oct 2016, 13:04

Wasn't sure where to put this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10 ... e-monitor/

Just the one though.....

Dahedd
Member
Posts: 484
Joined: 06 May 2015, 11:18

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby Dahedd » 29 Oct 2016, 17:57

There's a definite case for fixed wing mpas to be operated by the Coast Guard. Props like the Jetstream in the link or how's about refurbished Hercules as the RAF retire them (herc could do long range SAR as well, chucking stuff out the back.

Also I'd give the River b1 to the Borderforce & lease some offshore support vessels that are going cheap just now.

marktigger
Senior Member
Posts: 4599
Joined: 01 May 2015, 10:22
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby marktigger » 30 Oct 2016, 08:44

For covering areas round the SW (Dorset, Devon and Cornwall) the Rivers are good but the closest points smugglers will take is straits of Dover. But particularly people smugglers will switch to more isolated areas if patrols increase.
As to aircraft the King Airs that are being retired from Multi engine training could be converted by the contractor to patrol aircraft and leased to the Border agency.

User avatar
RichardIC
Member
Posts: 552
Joined: 10 May 2015, 16:59
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby RichardIC » 30 Oct 2016, 10:37

marktigger wrote:As to aircraft the King Airs that are being retired from Multi engine training could be converted by the contractor to patrol aircraft and leased to the Border agency.


The RN already has four Avengers optimised for maritime work....

Image

... although they have a day job to be getting on with too.

marktigger
Senior Member
Posts: 4599
Joined: 01 May 2015, 10:22
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby marktigger » 30 Oct 2016, 10:47

RichardIC wrote:
marktigger wrote:As to aircraft the King Airs that are being retired from Multi engine training could be converted by the contractor to patrol aircraft and leased to the Border agency.


The RN already has four Avengers optimised for maritime work....

Image

... although they have a day job to be getting on with too.


sort of they are observer training aircraft and the RAF has Shadow as well

marktigger
Senior Member
Posts: 4599
Joined: 01 May 2015, 10:22
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby marktigger » 30 Oct 2016, 10:57

such a shame that BaE stopped producing the Jetstream 31 & 41 when they decided to concentrate on dominating the military market

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5835
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby shark bait » 30 Oct 2016, 12:56

Good news on the aircraft, exactly what we need. One is a good start, lets hope it continues to be expanded.
@LandSharkUK

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5835
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby shark bait » 30 Oct 2016, 13:00

marktigger wrote:For covering areas round the SW (Dorset, Devon and Cornwall) the Rivers are good


The rivers aren't good, they're too big and slow to counter the small ad-hoc nature of smugglers. Aircraft and smaller faster craft are a more suitable response.
@LandSharkUK

marktigger
Senior Member
Posts: 4599
Joined: 01 May 2015, 10:22
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby marktigger » 30 Oct 2016, 13:02

shark bait wrote:
marktigger wrote:For covering areas round the SW (Dorset, Devon and Cornwall) the Rivers are good


The rivers aren't good, they're too big and slow to counter the small ad-hoc nature of smugglers. Aircraft and smaller faster craft are a more suitable response.


but they have the sea keeping capability to stay on station in more exposed waters and they do carry RIBS for intercepts.

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 3281
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Location: Japan

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 30 Oct 2016, 13:30

Jetstreem 41 for "Coast Guard" is nice.

In Japan, we have 9x DHC-8-Q300 and 9x Beechcraft350, and 4x Saab340B, along with 2x GulfstreamV and 2x Falcon 900 for long range duties.

But, how about Islander/Defender? It is more "British" origin, already 9 are operated with Army, and cheap. Its range is "similar" to our Dash-8 = not too short.

marktigger
Senior Member
Posts: 4599
Joined: 01 May 2015, 10:22
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby marktigger » 30 Oct 2016, 14:03

islander/defender would be a good option for short patrols.


Return to “Royal Navy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Clive F and 17 guests