The future form of the Army

[Ian Hall]

An opinion.....

https://www.geostrategy.org.uk/britains ... e-century/

[SW1]

An opinion.....

https://www.geostrategy.org.uk/britains ... e-century/

That is a very poorly argued piece that jumps to conclusions with little or no reasoning other than I want the army’s budget for more of my favourite things.

Just one example

“The world is more volatile, as events in Ukraine, Armenia-Azerbaijan, and Israel-Gaza have shown. Despite the fact that this volatility includes the land and air domains (amongst others such as space and cyber), the maritime domain will be decisive”

It lists several conflicts talks about volatility then says this mean the maritime domain is decisive! How do any of the conflicts highlighted show the maritime domain is decisive?

[Tempest414]

An opinion.....

https://www.geostrategy.org.uk/britains ... e-century/

That is a very poorly argued piece that jumps to conclusions with little or no reasoning other than I want the army’s budget for more of my favourite things.

Just one example

“The world is more volatile, as events in Ukraine, Armenia-Azerbaijan, and Israel-Gaza have shown. Despite the fact that this volatility includes the land and air domains (amongst others such as space and cyber), the maritime domain will be decisive”

It lists several conflicts talks about volatility then says this mean the maritime domain is decisive! How do any of the conflicts highlighted show the maritime domain is decisive?

Only in Ukraine has the ability of Ukraine to challenge the Maritime domain and stop a Russian landing

[Zeno]

This may have been raised before so apologies if so ,but shouldn't reviews also include if doctrines of the army need to be able to adjust to the changes in technology and tactics of potential opponents ,is there a flexibility there, the conflicts in Ukraine and Israel are quite different certainly the Hamas group worked out how to attack Israel and overwhelm the "Iron Dome", tank warfare in in Ukraine has also become more hazardous for the operators ?

[Tempest414]

This may have been raised before so apologies if so ,but shouldn't reviews also include if doctrines of the army need to be able to adjust to the changes in technology and tactics of potential opponents ,is there a flexibility there, the conflicts in Ukraine and Israel are quite different certainly the Hamas group worked out how to attack Israel and overwhelm the "Iron Dome", tank warfare in in Ukraine has also become more hazardous for the operators ?

Yes you are right and the British army are lucky in that it has a lot of archives to fall back on from streets of Northern Ireland to armoured fighting in Desert storm, we are also lucky in that others have had to fight the new drone based war first so we can take lessons from them to

Right now as we speak the army is carrying out an EX to put together the new thinking

[Rentaghost]

https://www.joint-forces.com/features/6 ... strike-bct

Article has some more detail on the DRS BCT, and an interesting grahic on how the Brigade assets would deploy at different scales for different operations.

07-1DRS23-022.jpg

[Ian Hall]

Interesting read.

Adaptations are necessary if heavy armoured forces are to remain relevant. This paper argues that the primary requirement is to implement a comparative shift away from protection and towards mobility.

https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/p ... ms-warfare

[SW1]

Mod ends contract with General dynamics for radios

https://www.ft.com/content/b258706c-1b3 ... cfb07e7743

[Ian Hall]

https://www.constructionenquirer.com/20 ... expansion/

[Poiuytrewq]

…what we need right now is deployable formations and there for the armoured brigades need to become Combined arms brigades with 4 x combined arms battalions….

Why not both?

If 1st Division is fully mechanised with BOXER, Patria 6x6, Archer and Jackal/Coyote it becomes a highly deployable and versatile unit. Relatively cost effective but still potent and a welcome increase in mass. As an all-wheeled formation these Brigades could travel large distances without transporters which could be highly valuable in certain circumstances.

If 3rd Division forms around CH3, AJAX, CV90, M270 and a AS90 replacement the U.K. regains some world class offensive capability. This is the type of force needed to reverse an incursion especially if air supremacy isn’t guaranteed.

The most important IMO is the rapid reaction Brigades, ideally three Brigades (16AAB, 3Cdo Bde and Gurkha Bde) with supporting assets primarily based on the SupaCat HMT chassis. Individual HMT modules containing 105mm howitzer, GMLRS, Brimstone, 120mm mortar, GBAD etc would be ideal. Augmented further with the Rangers, SF, SFSG etc this could be a capability in high demand around the world if properly resourced.

Clearly this is a world away from what the Army has now but it’s not a huge departure from current planning. An achievable target to aim for if 2.5% is the goal in SDSR25.

[Caribbean]

To my mind, one thing that is missing is a wheeled deep-fires capability to support 1 Division. Initially, keeping the 14 Archer and acquiring (say) 24 HIMARS equivalent (potentially based on a more compact platform, for air-portability) would go some way.
Eventually replace the Archers with (say) the Boxer 155mm for use in both armoured & mechanised divisions & purchase a Boxer-based MLRS, with the rapid raction brigades getting the light gun replacement & keeping/ expanding on the lightweight HIMARS platforms

[Poiuytrewq]

To my mind, one thing that is missing is a wheeled deep-fires capability to support 1 Division. Initially, keeping the 14 Archer and acquiring (say) 24 HIMARS equivalent (potentially based on a more compact platform, for air-portability) would go some way.
Eventually replace the Archers with (say) the Boxer 155mm for use in both armoured & mechanised divisions & purchase a Boxer-based MLRS, with the rapid raction brigades getting the light gun replacement & keeping/ expanding on the lightweight HIMARS platforms

Completely agree.

Deep fires and artillery is another top priority.

Can universal modules be created for GMLRS, 120mm Mortar, 105mm Howitzer, SHORAD and Brimstone etc?

Something flatbed based that can be easily transported over long distances via truck and then transferred across to BOXER and SupaCat HMT?

It would squeeze maximum versatility out of the highly expensive BOXER hull.

[Tempest414]

…what we need right now is deployable formations and there for the armoured brigades need to become Combined arms brigades with 4 x combined arms battalions….

Why not both?

If 1st Division is fully mechanised with BOXER, Patria 6x6, Archer and Jackal/Coyote it becomes a highly deployable and versatile unit. Relatively cost effective but still potent and a welcome increase in mass. As an all-wheeled formation these Brigades could travel large distances without transporters which could be highly valuable in certain circumstances.

If 3rd Division forms around CH3, AJAX, CV90, M270 and a AS90 replacement the U.K. regains some world class offensive capability. This is the type of force needed to reverse an incursion especially if air supremacy isn’t guaranteed.

The most important IMO is the rapid reaction Brigades, ideally three Brigades (16AAB, 3Cdo Bde and Gurkha Bde) with supporting assets primarily based on the SupaCat HMT chassis. Individual HMT modules containing 105mm howitzer, GMLRS, Brimstone, 120mm mortar, GBAD etc would be ideal. Augmented further with the Rangers, SF, SFSG etc this could be a capability in high demand around the world if properly resourced.

Clearly this is a world away from what the Army has now but it’s not a huge departure from current planning. An achievable target to aim for if 2.5% is the goal in SDSR25.

Putting aside the 11th SFA , Rangers , 77th & a SF Brigade the Army under FS could build 7 Brigades plus 2 Reserve brigades which could be laid out like so

1st Deep fires Recce brigade = 3 x combined fires regts with 1 x SP Gun & 2 M270 batteries , 2 x Cavalry regts , Watchkeeper regt
2nd Deep fires Recce brigade = 2 x combined fires regts with 1 x 120mm Field Gun & 2 Light GMLRS batteries , 2 x Cavalry regts

12th & 20th Heavy Combined Arms Brigade each = 4 combined regts with a HQ company , 1 x Cavalry Sqn , 1 x Tank Sqn , 2 x Infantry companies , 1 x 120mm SP Mortar Platoon , 1 x Overwatch Platoon , 1 x air defence Platoon

16 AA Brigade = As is under FS but give 7RHA a new 120mm light field gun and a 6 round Brimstone firing Exactor 3 system both air portable both able to be towed by a new tractor unit

4th , 7th & 51st light combined arms brigades each = 4 Combined regts with a HQ company , 1 x Cavalry Sqn , 3 x Infantry companies , 1 x 120mm SP Mortar Platoon , 1 x Overwatch Platoon , 1 x air defence Platoon

19th Reserve Heavy Combined arm brigade as above
53rd Reserve Light Combined arms brigade as above

So the 1st division would be made up of the 2nd DFR & 3 x Light CAB's + the 53rd LCAB .

The 3rd division would be the 1st DFR & 2 x Heavy CAB's + 19th HCAB

This would mean the new 6th division would be 16 AA , 11th SFA , Rangers , 77th & a SF Brigade

[Tempest414]

To my mind, one thing that is missing is a wheeled deep-fires capability to support 1 Division. Initially, keeping the 14 Archer and acquiring (say) 24 HIMARS equivalent (potentially based on a more compact platform, for air-portability) would go some way.
Eventually replace the Archers with (say) the Boxer 155mm for use in both armoured & mechanised divisions & purchase a Boxer-based MLRS, with the rapid raction brigades getting the light gun replacement & keeping/ expanding on the lightweight HIMARS platforms

Completely agree.

Deep fires and artillery is another top priority.

Can universal modules be created for GMLRS, 120mm Mortar, 105mm Howitzer, SHORAD and Brimstone etc?

Something flatbed based that can be easily transported over long distances via truck and then transferred across to BOXER and SupaCat HMT?

It would squeeze maximum versatility out of the highly expensive BOXER hull.

so as far as Brimstone goes the UK built Wolfram for Ukraine witch is in service now

https://en.defence-ua.com/media/illustr ... 12817f.jpg

[Poiuytrewq]

….so as far as Brimstone goes the UK built Wolfram for Ukraine witch is in service now

It’s a great start.

I was thinking more of a universal flatbed unit where modules could be rapidly changed depending on requirements.

It would open the door to a whole host of possibilities.

[Caribbean]

AFAIK there are Boxer, Man and Jackal flatbeds available. Pretty sure there was a prototype flatbed Foxhound variant. Stormer had one as well. Maybe something will come out of the FV432 replacement program next year. I would love to see a wheeled/ tracked pair of vehicles using the same modules/ components like Boxer & tBoxer

[Tempest414]

….so as far as Brimstone goes the UK built Wolfram for Ukraine witch is in service now

It’s a great start.

I was thinking more of a universal flatbed unit where modules could be rapidly changed depending on requirements.

It would open the door to a whole host of possibilities.

The problem I see here is lets a HMT-600 has a Brimstone pack and a commander calls for a role change to a 120mm mortar or 105mm gun pack will the crew need to know how to use all three weapons

[Poiuytrewq]

The problem I see here is lets a HMT-600 has a Brimstone pack and a commander calls for a role change to a 120mm mortar or 105mm gun pack will the crew need to know how to use all three weapons

Does the crew come with the module or the vehicle?

[Tempest414]

The problem I see here is lets a HMT-600 has a Brimstone pack and a commander calls for a role change to a 120mm mortar or 105mm gun pack will the crew need to know how to use all three weapons

Does the crew come with the module or the vehicle?

ether way there could be a lot crews waiting for a vehicle. The idea that you could fit different kit on flatbed vehicles is good but we still need a set number of vehicles and modules so lets take my Idea of a combined arms regiment each regiment will need 8 x Brimstone OW , 8 x 120mm Mortar , 8 x Air Defence

Also what the army needs is a new light gun witch needs to come in both towed and light SP witch has a 40km range plus as said a Brimstone Exactor 3 unit

[mr.fred]

Also what the army needs is a new light gun witch needs to come in both towed and light SP witch has a 40km range

Using the same ordnance on towed and SP seems sensible, but is 40km from a light gun possible or desirable? Would it not compromise the "Light" part of the requirement? Greater barrel length, increased recoil and more propellant will drive increased weight of gun and ammunition.
Does a light force really need that kind of range, or could you not cover it from range with larger artillery?

[Tempest414]

Also what the army needs is a new light gun witch needs to come in both towed and light SP witch has a 40km range

Using the same ordnance on towed and SP seems sensible, but is 40km from a light gun possible or desirable? Would it not compromise the "Light" part of the requirement? Greater barrel length, increased recoil and more propellant will drive increased weight of gun and ammunition.
Does a light force really need that kind of range, or could you not cover it from range with larger artillery?

all good points will think on it and come back

[Caribbean]

Pushing the light gun's range out to 22-25km would outrange all current Russian 122mm (based on publicly available specs) and even some 152mm systems (using standard ammunition). Perhaps 40km range could be acheived with specialist (rocket-assisted etc) rounds. For longer ranges, I think we should be looking at rocket-based systems

[Tempest414]

It is claimed that the 105mm shell filled with ROWANEX has a blast effect of a standard 155mm shell so could we design a 90mm sabot ( Like the Vulcano round ) with ROWANEX that gives the blast effect of a standard 127mm shell and the 40km range

[Poiuytrewq]

Moved across.

For me as said Army can have 3 Divisions with 9 Brigades

1st Division with 3 Light Mech brigades
3rd Division with 2 x Combined armed brigades
6th Division with 16AA , Rangers , 11th SFA , SF brigade

The key will be the 3 Light Mech Brigades and what vehicles they have for me one of them should be based on Viking with the other two being based around HMT 400 & 600 and Foxhound the key will how they fight using the same basic weapons like 105mm SP gun , 120mm SP mortar , Brimstone , Air defence

What will win any war in the the high North will Logistics and we know that is a big failing in the Russian army 2 years into a major land war and there still not on top of it

Interesting take.

A few considerations:

• If the main concern is lightning short endurance incursions as well as sustained incursions all of which would be conducted easily within S-400 range of the border is air supremacy guaranteed?

• If air supremacy or air superiority isn’t rapidly achievable within the first 72hrs how relevant is combined arms until it is achieved? Is air superiority ever truly achievable that close to the border with the extremely dense A2/AD?

• Highly mobile and potent rapid reaction Brigades would be vital to stall an incursion but is combined arms still the best way to reverse an incursion if air superiority can’t be achieved?

• Could fully armoured divisions still provide the answer to roll up any incursion by relying on massed artillery using precision munitions to unlock the door whilst protecting troops as much as possible under armour in what would inevitably be a highly lethal battle space?

• A fully Mechanised 1st Division (wheeled) and fully Armoured 3rd Division (tracked) is still the best way to currently proceed IMO even if the Brigades are reorganised in the future to react to events. This should be absolutely achievable even within the current budgetary envelope if the Army starts to focus on getting it done.

• The rapid reaction forces should be the first priority but current planning is totally incoherent with the 16AAB, FCF and Rangers pulling in different directions. The JRRF was a much more credible and potent force structure. Many decisions need to be made now:

- How many rapid reaction Brigades does the U.K. require?

- Is the Army getting meaningfully involved in the Arctic/Sub-Arctic or is RM going to continue to specialise?

- Can a trailer be developed for Viking that allows the same modules to be transferred across all rapid reaction force vehicles? One modular system that includes 105mm howitzer, 120mm, GMLRS, Brimstone and SHORAD/GBAD etc that fits on Viking, HMT and a standard truck chassis.

- Can all rapid reaction vehicles be both air transportable and air mobile via Chinook?

• Is LRG(N) and LRG(S) still relevant? If so should they be configured differently or exactly the same?

• Is a permanently available UK ARG required to support the LRGs and/or rapid reaction Brigades?

• How much is the UK intending to get involved in the Indo Pacific in the next 5-10 years.

It will take an SDSR to sort it all out. One that isn’t strictly fixed to a price.

IMO it’s clear that the U.K. could proceed in a few different directions and still achieve the same result.

[Tempest414]

Moved across.

For me as said Army can have 3 Divisions with 9 Brigades

1st Division with 3 Light Mech brigades
3rd Division with 2 x Combined armed brigades
6th Division with 16AA , Rangers , 11th SFA , SF brigade

The key will be the 3 Light Mech Brigades and what vehicles they have for me one of them should be based on Viking with the other two being based around HMT 400 & 600 and Foxhound the key will how they fight using the same basic weapons like 105mm SP gun , 120mm SP mortar , Brimstone , Air defence

What will win any war in the the high North will Logistics and we know that is a big failing in the Russian army 2 years into a major land war and there still not on top of it

Interesting take.

A few considerations:

• If the main concern is lightning short endurance incursions as well as sustained incursions all of which would be conducted easily within S-400 range of the border is air supremacy guaranteed?

• If air supremacy or air superiority isn’t rapidly achievable within the first 72hrs how relevant is combined arms until it is achieved? Is air superiority ever truly achievable that close to the border with the extremely dense A2/AD?

• Highly mobile and potent rapid reaction Brigades would be vital to stall an incursion but is combined arms still the best way to reverse an incursion if air superiority can’t be achieved?

• Could fully armoured divisions still provide the answer to roll up any incursion by relying on massed artillery using precision munitions to unlock the door whilst protecting troops as much as possible under armour in what would inevitably be a highly lethal battle space?

• A fully Mechanised 1st Division (wheeled) and fully Armoured 3rd Division (tracked) is still the best way to currently proceed IMO even if the Brigades are reorganised in the future to react to events. This should be absolutely achievable even within the current budgetary envelope if the Army starts to focus on getting it done.

• The rapid reaction forces should be the first priority but current planning is totally incoherent with the 16AAB, FCF and Rangers pulling in different directions. The JRRF was a much more credible and potent force structure. Many decisions need to be made now:

- How many rapid reaction Brigades does the U.K. require?

- Is the Army getting meaningfully involved in the Arctic/Sub-Arctic or is RM going to continue to specialise?

- Can a trailer be developed for Viking that allows the same modules to be transferred across all rapid reaction force vehicles? One modular system that includes 105mm howitzer, 120mm, GMLRS, Brimstone and SHORAD/GBAD etc that fits on Viking, HMT and a standard truck chassis.

- Can all rapid reaction vehicles be both air transportable and air mobile via Chinook?

• Is LRG(N) and LRG(S) still relevant? If so should they be configured differently or exactly the same?

• Is a permanently available UK ARG required to support the LRGs and/or rapid reaction Brigades?

• How much is the UK intending to get involved in the Indo Pacific in the next 5-10 years.

It will take an SDSR to sort it all out. One that isn’t strictly fixed to a price.

IMO it’s clear that the U.K. could proceed in a few different directions and still achieve the same result.

First off the 2 Combined arms brigades would be covered by the 1st Deep Fires brigade the best we should hope for is contested air so the brigades should all have SHORAD as a base level.

As said before the Combined Arms Brigade each = 4 combined regts with a HQ company , 1 x Cavalry Sqn , 1 x Tank Sqn , 2 x Infantry companies , 1 x 120mm SP Mortar Platoon , 1 x Overwatch Platoon , 1 x air defence Platoon

Second the Light Mech Brigades should air transportable by A400 or C-17 but forget Chinooks they are there to support 16AA who should have 120mm , Brimstone & HMV/LMM based on LRV 400/600 the L/Mech Brigades should be able to be air lifted or moved by Point class and drive into action

16 AA is the rapid reaction brigade and there job should be to support forward deployed elements of the Ranger , SF and SFA Brigades under the 6th Div if we need another RRB we should as said form a Gurkha brigade