Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
- Tempest414
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
The FDI is a good ship for regional navies but not as good for global navies I think
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
But France is a global navy. Also RN was on the same side of densely equipped smallish escorts in number until Type-23. It is only after the cold war ends, and ship are to be operated for 30-35 years, and hence needing LIFEX.Tempest414 wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 15:08 The FDI is a good ship for regional navies but not as good for global navies I think
Buying compact and densely equipped escorts and disband them within 20-25 years is yet another "good" approach, I think.
Not which is better, but just a different approach. If MOD, HMG and HMT are flexible to adopt "25 year replace" plan, I think it can also be a valid option for RN.
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- serge750
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
- These users liked the author SW1 for the post (total 2):
- donald_of_tokyo • serge750
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
I think you have a few misconceptions.donald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 15:24But France is a global navy. Also RN was on the same side of densely equipped smallish escorts in number until Type-23. It is only after the cold war ends, and ship are to be operated for 30-35 years, and hence needing LIFEX.Tempest414 wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 15:08 The FDI is a good ship for regional navies but not as good for global navies I think
Buying compact and densely equipped escorts and disband them within 20-25 years is yet another "good" approach, I think.
Not which is better, but just a different approach. If MOD, HMG and HMT are flexible to adopt "25 year replace" plan, I think it can also be a valid option for RN.
When T23 was designed, it was designed for a 16 year service life.
When T26 programme was aroused it was intended to be T23 replacement on the 25-year mark
T26. growth room wasn't a result of it's 30+ year actual service life.
Steel is cheap, Air is free,
A famous quote that regardless it's overuse hold an abundance of truth.
- Tempest414
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- Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Yes France is a global navy but that dose not make FDI a good blue water ship like FREMM but what it is is a great regional ship which is very good exports as most navies in the world are just this regionaldonald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 15:24But France is a global navy. Also RN was on the same side of densely equipped smallish escorts in number until Type-23. It is only after the cold war ends, and ship are to be operated for 30-35 years, and hence needing LIFEX.Tempest414 wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 15:08 The FDI is a good ship for regional navies but not as good for global navies I think
Buying compact and densely equipped escorts and disband them within 20-25 years is yet another "good" approach, I think.
Not which is better, but just a different approach. If MOD, HMG and HMT are flexible to adopt "25 year replace" plan, I think it can also be a valid option for RN.
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Why would a frigate with 5000nm range and 45 day endurance not be a good blue water ship?Tempest414 wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 18:00Yes France is a global navy but that dose not make FDI a good blue water ship like FREMM but what it is is a great regional ship which is very good exports as most navies in the world are just this regionaldonald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 15:24But France is a global navy. Also RN was on the same side of densely equipped smallish escorts in number until Type-23. It is only after the cold war ends, and ship are to be operated for 30-35 years, and hence needing LIFEX.Tempest414 wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 15:08 The FDI is a good ship for regional navies but not as good for global navies I think
Buying compact and densely equipped escorts and disband them within 20-25 years is yet another "good" approach, I think.
Not which is better, but just a different approach. If MOD, HMG and HMT are flexible to adopt "25 year replace" plan, I think it can also be a valid option for RN.
- Tempest414
- Senior Member
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- Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
in the same way that a RB2 with a 5000nm range and 35 day endurance is not a good Blue water ship sizeSW1 wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 18:12Why would a frigate with 5000nm range and 45 day endurance not be a good blue water ship?Tempest414 wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 18:00Yes France is a global navy but that dose not make FDI a good blue water ship like FREMM but what it is is a great regional ship which is very good exports as most navies in the world are just this regionaldonald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 15:24But France is a global navy. Also RN was on the same side of densely equipped smallish escorts in number until Type-23. It is only after the cold war ends, and ship are to be operated for 30-35 years, and hence needing LIFEX.Tempest414 wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 15:08 The FDI is a good ship for regional navies but not as good for global navies I think
Buying compact and densely equipped escorts and disband them within 20-25 years is yet another "good" approach, I think.
Not which is better, but just a different approach. If MOD, HMG and HMT are flexible to adopt "25 year replace" plan, I think it can also be a valid option for RN.
The FDI will be good in the same way it can move place to place and do a great job when there
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Great, let’s buy some oil tankers. Tbh I think is the most overused phrase there is - there is plenty of reasons why ships do not need to be large nor would you always want them to be.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
We should never settle for a fleet of under armed ships to keep numbers up - firstly the RN is more crew restricted than money restricted it seems. Also, if war did break out it will move very quickly, whatever happens in the first few weeks will dictate who wins. Therefore, every platform should count, as there will be no time to upgrade or build more ships if you lose the opening.donald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 14:33 …do we need "better armed but less number of escorts" or "be happy with under-armed escorts to keep the hull number"?
I personally think the latter is the aim.
[EDIT/ADD] In war time, navy needs to be expanded, but how?
Up-arming an escort is much more easy and faster than building new one. As we can see, all 3 types of escorts can almost "double" their fighting power if needed. Up-armed escort will need a bit more crew, but it will not be double.
Sure people will say we didn’t win the first part of WW2, that’s true, but the most important thing was we didn’t lose it. This is exactly why we need to ensure we have a top tier that is capable of not losing or allowing the enemy to invade the UK or degrade our capabilities such we cannot recover. And btw, we need this in the next ten years, which is exactly why I want more of and out of our SSNs/T26s/T45s (+ CVFs) and fewer T31s or misplaced units manned by the RFA.
Your question on what would be our WW3 Flower Class is a good one - the reason why it was a success was that it was easy to build (in multiple yards so <90m) and relatively easy to operate. This where a good MHPC design can come in, and I believe taking another look at RV Triton would be a good place to start.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
FDI is twice the size of a river. Also it’s quite wide I assume for improved sea keeping so I don’t really understand the comparison nor why it’s badTempest414 wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 18:25in the same way that a RB2 with a 5000nm range and 35 day endurance is not a good Blue water ship sizeSW1 wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 18:12Why would a frigate with 5000nm range and 45 day endurance not be a good blue water ship?Tempest414 wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 18:00Yes France is a global navy but that dose not make FDI a good blue water ship like FREMM but what it is is a great regional ship which is very good exports as most navies in the world are just this regionaldonald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 15:24But France is a global navy. Also RN was on the same side of densely equipped smallish escorts in number until Type-23. It is only after the cold war ends, and ship are to be operated for 30-35 years, and hence needing LIFEX.Tempest414 wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 15:08 The FDI is a good ship for regional navies but not as good for global navies I think
Buying compact and densely equipped escorts and disband them within 20-25 years is yet another "good" approach, I think.
Not which is better, but just a different approach. If MOD, HMG and HMT are flexible to adopt "25 year replace" plan, I think it can also be a valid option for RN.
The FDI will be good in the same way it can move place to place and do a great job when there
for operating in an ocean.
- Tempest414
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- Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
I would agree a FDI at 180 by 28 meters would be a great blue water ship but it is not at is itSW1 wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 19:46FDI is twice the size of a river. Also it’s quite wide I assume for improved sea keeping so I don’t really understand the comparison nor why it’s badTempest414 wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 18:25in the same way that a RB2 with a 5000nm range and 35 day endurance is not a good Blue water ship sizeSW1 wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 18:12Why would a frigate with 5000nm range and 45 day endurance not be a good blue water ship?Tempest414 wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 18:00Yes France is a global navy but that dose not make FDI a good blue water ship like FREMM but what it is is a great regional ship which is very good exports as most navies in the world are just this regionaldonald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 15:24But France is a global navy. Also RN was on the same side of densely equipped smallish escorts in number until Type-23. It is only after the cold war ends, and ship are to be operated for 30-35 years, and hence needing LIFEX.Tempest414 wrote: ↑06 Feb 2024, 15:08 The FDI is a good ship for regional navies but not as good for global navies I think
Buying compact and densely equipped escorts and disband them within 20-25 years is yet another "good" approach, I think.
Not which is better, but just a different approach. If MOD, HMG and HMT are flexible to adopt "25 year replace" plan, I think it can also be a valid option for RN.
The FDI will be good in the same way it can move place to place and do a great job when there
for operating in an ocean.
As said FDI is a great ship for regional navies and will do well in exports for that reason
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
FWIW a poster's comment on Artisan caught my eye on a War Zone article " San Antonio Class Looks Very Different After Shedding Its Stealthy Masts", not very complimentary to Artisan due its high beamwidth at longer ranges.
https://www.twz.com/sea/san-antonio-cla ... lthy-masts
Patrick Chase
9 hours ago
This seems a little misleading:
Even the smaller versions of the AN/SPY-6 like the (V)2 offer massive advantages over existing phased array types like the AN/SPS-48, particularly in terms of being able to track more targets at longer ranges with greater precision and fidelity.
For starters SPS-48 is a planar array that is frequency-scanned (FRESCAN) in elevation, not a phased array (though I've seen some sites erroneously conflate the two approaches).
Second, while it's correct that EASR can "track more targets" than SPS-48, it's not as precise ("fidelity" has no defined meaning in this context, so I'll leave that alone). Both SPY-6(V)2 and SPS-48 are S-band radars with wavelengths of ~0.1m. EASR has an aperture size of 6 feet = 1.82 m. It's diffraction-limited beamwidth is therefore 1.22*0.1/1.82 = 0.067 radians = 3.8 degrees. That's actually fairly poor precision by modern search radar standards, and probably insufficient to provide engagement-quality tracks at longer ranges (though some other comparable radars like Type 997 Artisan are even worse).
By contrast, SPS-48's ~5 meter aperture gives it a 1.5 degree beamwidth. It's actually a very precise radar.
I'm not saying that EASR isn't a worthy replacement for SPS-48 or that it isn't a net upgrade, but there is no free lunch and it's simply physically impossible for a 1.8-meter aperture to match a 5-meter one in terms of precision. Size matters whether the radar is AESA or not.
https://www.twz.com/sea/san-antonio-cla ... lthy-masts
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
BAE state that the beamwidth on Artisan is <2 degreesNickC wrote: ↑07 Feb 2024, 11:47 FWIW a poster's comment on Artisan caught my eye on a War Zone article " San Antonio Class Looks Very Different After Shedding Its Stealthy Masts", not very complimentary to Artisan due its high beamwidth at longer ranges.
Patrick Chase
9 hours ago
This seems a little misleading:
Even the smaller versions of the AN/SPY-6 like the (V)2 offer massive advantages over existing phased array types like the AN/SPS-48, particularly in terms of being able to track more targets at longer ranges with greater precision and fidelity.
For starters SPS-48 is a planar array that is frequency-scanned (FRESCAN) in elevation, not a phased array (though I've seen some sites erroneously conflate the two approaches).
Second, while it's correct that EASR can "track more targets" than SPS-48, it's not as precise ("fidelity" has no defined meaning in this context, so I'll leave that alone). Both SPY-6(V)2 and SPS-48 are S-band radars with wavelengths of ~0.1m. EASR has an aperture size of 6 feet = 1.82 m. It's diffraction-limited beamwidth is therefore 1.22*0.1/1.82 = 0.067 radians = 3.8 degrees. That's actually fairly poor precision by modern search radar standards, and probably insufficient to provide engagement-quality tracks at longer ranges (though some other comparable radars like Type 997 Artisan are even worse).
By contrast, SPS-48's ~5 meter aperture gives it a 1.5 degree beamwidth. It's actually a very precise radar.
I'm not saying that EASR isn't a worthy replacement for SPS-48 or that it isn't a net upgrade, but there is no free lunch and it's simply physically impossible for a 1.8-meter aperture to match a 5-meter one in terms of precision. Size matters whether the radar is AESA or not.
https://www.twz.com/sea/san-antonio-cla ... lthy-masts
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
A contradiction and don't think anyway to reconcile them but would note as said in radar size matters, USN state sensitivity scales as a cube of the size of the aperture.tomuk wrote: ↑08 Feb 2024, 00:57BAE state that the beamwidth on Artisan is <2 degreesNickC wrote: ↑07 Feb 2024, 11:47 FWIW a poster's comment on Artisan caught my eye on a War Zone article " San Antonio Class Looks Very Different After Shedding Its Stealthy Masts", not very complimentary to Artisan due its high beamwidth at longer ranges.
Patrick Chase
9 hours ago
This seems a little misleading:
Even the smaller versions of the AN/SPY-6 like the (V)2 offer massive advantages over existing phased array types like the AN/SPS-48, particularly in terms of being able to track more targets at longer ranges with greater precision and fidelity.
For starters SPS-48 is a planar array that is frequency-scanned (FRESCAN) in elevation, not a phased array (though I've seen some sites erroneously conflate the two approaches).
Second, while it's correct that EASR can "track more targets" than SPS-48, it's not as precise ("fidelity" has no defined meaning in this context, so I'll leave that alone). Both SPY-6(V)2 and SPS-48 are S-band radars with wavelengths of ~0.1m. EASR has an aperture size of 6 feet = 1.82 m. It's diffraction-limited beamwidth is therefore 1.22*0.1/1.82 = 0.067 radians = 3.8 degrees. That's actually fairly poor precision by modern search radar standards, and probably insufficient to provide engagement-quality tracks at longer ranges (though some other comparable radars like Type 997 Artisan are even worse).
By contrast, SPS-48's ~5 meter aperture gives it a 1.5 degree beamwidth. It's actually a very precise radar.
I'm not saying that EASR isn't a worthy replacement for SPS-48 or that it isn't a net upgrade, but there is no free lunch and it's simply physically impossible for a 1.8-meter aperture to match a 5-meter one in terms of precision. Size matters whether the radar is AESA or not.
https://www.twz.com/sea/san-antonio-cla ... lthy-masts
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Australia gearing up for a possible A140 build.
https://archive.is/2GZW9
Can the RAN buy off of the shelf this time to accelerate the timescale?
Seems unlikely based on past performance.
https://archive.is/2GZW9
“If you buy exactly the same vessel as a type 31, you’re going to accelerate your speed,” Mr Bennett said.
“If you wish to bring in a design change to fit a different combat system and want a different engine, for example, that duration totally changes.”
“If you wish to bring in a design change to fit a different combat system and want a different engine, for example, that duration totally changes.”
Can the RAN buy off of the shelf this time to accelerate the timescale?
Seems unlikely based on past performance.
- These users liked the author Poiuytrewq for the post (total 2):
- wargame_insomniac • serge750
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
By the time they've upped the configuration to RAN standards, it won't be cheap either.
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
On the discussion of radars I don’t understand why RN isn’t fitting cheap 3D AESA radars to the Rivers and Bay class. At less than £2m a set for Sea Giraffe 1X it seems a bit of a no brainer cheap and small enough to go on a future small USV.NickC wrote: ↑07 Feb 2024, 11:47 FWIW a poster's comment on Artisan caught my eye on a War Zone article " San Antonio Class Looks Very Different After Shedding Its Stealthy Masts", not very complimentary to Artisan due its high beamwidth at longer ranges.
Patrick Chase
9 hours ago
This seems a little misleading:
Even the smaller versions of the AN/SPY-6 like the (V)2 offer massive advantages over existing phased array types like the AN/SPS-48, particularly in terms of being able to track more targets at longer ranges with greater precision and fidelity.
For starters SPS-48 is a planar array that is frequency-scanned (FRESCAN) in elevation, not a phased array (though I've seen some sites erroneously conflate the two approaches).
Second, while it's correct that EASR can "track more targets" than SPS-48, it's not as precise ("fidelity" has no defined meaning in this context, so I'll leave that alone). Both SPY-6(V)2 and SPS-48 are S-band radars with wavelengths of ~0.1m. EASR has an aperture size of 6 feet = 1.82 m. It's diffraction-limited beamwidth is therefore 1.22*0.1/1.82 = 0.067 radians = 3.8 degrees. That's actually fairly poor precision by modern search radar standards, and probably insufficient to provide engagement-quality tracks at longer ranges (though some other comparable radars like Type 997 Artisan are even worse).
By contrast, SPS-48's ~5 meter aperture gives it a 1.5 degree beamwidth. It's actually a very precise radar.
I'm not saying that EASR isn't a worthy replacement for SPS-48 or that it isn't a net upgrade, but there is no free lunch and it's simply physically impossible for a 1.8-meter aperture to match a 5-meter one in terms of precision. Size matters whether the radar is AESA or not.
https://www.twz.com/sea/san-antonio-cla ... lthy-masts
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
What is the point if they aren't also fitted with missiles that would need the tracking data?Fr0sty125 wrote: ↑08 Feb 2024, 17:25On the discussion of radars I don’t understand why RN isn’t fitting cheap 3D AESA radars to the Rivers and Bay class. At less than £2m a set for Sea Giraffe 1X it seems a bit of a no brainer cheap and small enough to go on a future small USV.NickC wrote: ↑07 Feb 2024, 11:47 FWIW a poster's comment on Artisan caught my eye on a War Zone article " San Antonio Class Looks Very Different After Shedding Its Stealthy Masts", not very complimentary to Artisan due its high beamwidth at longer ranges.
Patrick Chase
9 hours ago
This seems a little misleading:
Even the smaller versions of the AN/SPY-6 like the (V)2 offer massive advantages over existing phased array types like the AN/SPS-48, particularly in terms of being able to track more targets at longer ranges with greater precision and fidelity.
For starters SPS-48 is a planar array that is frequency-scanned (FRESCAN) in elevation, not a phased array (though I've seen some sites erroneously conflate the two approaches).
Second, while it's correct that EASR can "track more targets" than SPS-48, it's not as precise ("fidelity" has no defined meaning in this context, so I'll leave that alone). Both SPY-6(V)2 and SPS-48 are S-band radars with wavelengths of ~0.1m. EASR has an aperture size of 6 feet = 1.82 m. It's diffraction-limited beamwidth is therefore 1.22*0.1/1.82 = 0.067 radians = 3.8 degrees. That's actually fairly poor precision by modern search radar standards, and probably insufficient to provide engagement-quality tracks at longer ranges (though some other comparable radars like Type 997 Artisan are even worse).
By contrast, SPS-48's ~5 meter aperture gives it a 1.5 degree beamwidth. It's actually a very precise radar.
I'm not saying that EASR isn't a worthy replacement for SPS-48 or that it isn't a net upgrade, but there is no free lunch and it's simply physically impossible for a 1.8-meter aperture to match a 5-meter one in terms of precision. Size matters whether the radar is AESA or not.
https://www.twz.com/sea/san-antonio-cla ... lthy-masts
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Radar picket.tomuk wrote: ↑08 Feb 2024, 20:23What is the point if they aren't also fitted with missiles that would need the tracking data?Fr0sty125 wrote: ↑08 Feb 2024, 17:25On the discussion of radars I don’t understand why RN isn’t fitting cheap 3D AESA radars to the Rivers and Bay class. At less than £2m a set for Sea Giraffe 1X it seems a bit of a no brainer cheap and small enough to go on a future small USV.NickC wrote: ↑07 Feb 2024, 11:47 FWIW a poster's comment on Artisan caught my eye on a War Zone article " San Antonio Class Looks Very Different After Shedding Its Stealthy Masts", not very complimentary to Artisan due its high beamwidth at longer ranges.
Patrick Chase
9 hours ago
This seems a little misleading:
Even the smaller versions of the AN/SPY-6 like the (V)2 offer massive advantages over existing phased array types like the AN/SPS-48, particularly in terms of being able to track more targets at longer ranges with greater precision and fidelity.
For starters SPS-48 is a planar array that is frequency-scanned (FRESCAN) in elevation, not a phased array (though I've seen some sites erroneously conflate the two approaches).
Second, while it's correct that EASR can "track more targets" than SPS-48, it's not as precise ("fidelity" has no defined meaning in this context, so I'll leave that alone). Both SPY-6(V)2 and SPS-48 are S-band radars with wavelengths of ~0.1m. EASR has an aperture size of 6 feet = 1.82 m. It's diffraction-limited beamwidth is therefore 1.22*0.1/1.82 = 0.067 radians = 3.8 degrees. That's actually fairly poor precision by modern search radar standards, and probably insufficient to provide engagement-quality tracks at longer ranges (though some other comparable radars like Type 997 Artisan are even worse).
By contrast, SPS-48's ~5 meter aperture gives it a 1.5 degree beamwidth. It's actually a very precise radar.
I'm not saying that EASR isn't a worthy replacement for SPS-48 or that it isn't a net upgrade, but there is no free lunch and it's simply physically impossible for a 1.8-meter aperture to match a 5-meter one in terms of precision. Size matters whether the radar is AESA or not.
https://www.twz.com/sea/san-antonio-cla ... lthy-masts
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
I believe that the Giraffe 1X has been trialled on the experimental trials ship (the name escapes me at present Blackett ?). The current Terma Scanter radar meets the current requirement and is also used on non military vessels, whereas I expect an ESM system detecting a Giraffe would instantly define the ship as a military vessel.
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Sounds quite vulnerable.Fr0sty125 wrote: ↑08 Feb 2024, 20:29Radar picket.tomuk wrote: ↑08 Feb 2024, 20:23What is the point if they aren't also fitted with missiles that would need the tracking data?Fr0sty125 wrote: ↑08 Feb 2024, 17:25On the discussion of radars I don’t understand why RN isn’t fitting cheap 3D AESA radars to the Rivers and Bay class. At less than £2m a set for Sea Giraffe 1X it seems a bit of a no brainer cheap and small enough to go on a future small USV.NickC wrote: ↑07 Feb 2024, 11:47 FWIW a poster's comment on Artisan caught my eye on a War Zone article " San Antonio Class Looks Very Different After Shedding Its Stealthy Masts", not very complimentary to Artisan due its high beamwidth at longer ranges.
Patrick Chase
9 hours ago
This seems a little misleading:
Even the smaller versions of the AN/SPY-6 like the (V)2 offer massive advantages over existing phased array types like the AN/SPS-48, particularly in terms of being able to track more targets at longer ranges with greater precision and fidelity.
For starters SPS-48 is a planar array that is frequency-scanned (FRESCAN) in elevation, not a phased array (though I've seen some sites erroneously conflate the two approaches).
Second, while it's correct that EASR can "track more targets" than SPS-48, it's not as precise ("fidelity" has no defined meaning in this context, so I'll leave that alone). Both SPY-6(V)2 and SPS-48 are S-band radars with wavelengths of ~0.1m. EASR has an aperture size of 6 feet = 1.82 m. It's diffraction-limited beamwidth is therefore 1.22*0.1/1.82 = 0.067 radians = 3.8 degrees. That's actually fairly poor precision by modern search radar standards, and probably insufficient to provide engagement-quality tracks at longer ranges (though some other comparable radars like Type 997 Artisan are even worse).
By contrast, SPS-48's ~5 meter aperture gives it a 1.5 degree beamwidth. It's actually a very precise radar.
I'm not saying that EASR isn't a worthy replacement for SPS-48 or that it isn't a net upgrade, but there is no free lunch and it's simply physically impossible for a 1.8-meter aperture to match a 5-meter one in terms of precision. Size matters whether the radar is AESA or not.
https://www.twz.com/sea/san-antonio-cla ... lthy-masts
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
We've signed a contract for 11, 1 for trials on Patrick Blackett as part of the NavyX program the other 10 AIUI is assumed for land use, possibly Ukraine.pko100 wrote: ↑08 Feb 2024, 21:06 I believe that the Giraffe 1X has been trialled on the experimental trials ship (the name escapes me at present Blackett ?). The current Terma Scanter radar meets the current requirement and is also used on non military vessels, whereas I expect an ESM system detecting a Giraffe would instantly define the ship as a military vessel.
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Not really a contradiction. And I'd give benefit of the doubt to company published data rather than some aside in a BTL comment.NickC wrote: ↑08 Feb 2024, 09:24A contradiction and don't think anyway to reconcile them but would note as said in radar size matters, USN state sensitivity scales as a cube of the size of the aperture.tomuk wrote: ↑08 Feb 2024, 00:57BAE state that the beamwidth on Artisan is <2 degreesNickC wrote: ↑07 Feb 2024, 11:47 FWIW a poster's comment on Artisan caught my eye on a War Zone article " San Antonio Class Looks Very Different After Shedding Its Stealthy Masts", not very complimentary to Artisan due its high beamwidth at longer ranges.
Patrick Chase
9 hours ago
This seems a little misleading:
Even the smaller versions of the AN/SPY-6 like the (V)2 offer massive advantages over existing phased array types like the AN/SPS-48, particularly in terms of being able to track more targets at longer ranges with greater precision and fidelity.
For starters SPS-48 is a planar array that is frequency-scanned (FRESCAN) in elevation, not a phased array (though I've seen some sites erroneously conflate the two approaches).
Second, while it's correct that EASR can "track more targets" than SPS-48, it's not as precise ("fidelity" has no defined meaning in this context, so I'll leave that alone). Both SPY-6(V)2 and SPS-48 are S-band radars with wavelengths of ~0.1m. EASR has an aperture size of 6 feet = 1.82 m. It's diffraction-limited beamwidth is therefore 1.22*0.1/1.82 = 0.067 radians = 3.8 degrees. That's actually fairly poor precision by modern search radar standards, and probably insufficient to provide engagement-quality tracks at longer ranges (though some other comparable radars like Type 997 Artisan are even worse).
By contrast, SPS-48's ~5 meter aperture gives it a 1.5 degree beamwidth. It's actually a very precise radar.
I'm not saying that EASR isn't a worthy replacement for SPS-48 or that it isn't a net upgrade, but there is no free lunch and it's simply physically impossible for a 1.8-meter aperture to match a 5-meter one in terms of precision. Size matters whether the radar is AESA or not.
https://www.twz.com/sea/san-antonio-cla ... lthy-masts
Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion
Well it would be better to have a USV do the job. Stan flex style CAMM container would make the Rivers a lot less vulnerable.tomuk wrote: ↑08 Feb 2024, 22:01Sounds quite vulnerable.Fr0sty125 wrote: ↑08 Feb 2024, 20:29Radar picket.tomuk wrote: ↑08 Feb 2024, 20:23What is the point if they aren't also fitted with missiles that would need the tracking data?Fr0sty125 wrote: ↑08 Feb 2024, 17:25On the discussion of radars I don’t understand why RN isn’t fitting cheap 3D AESA radars to the Rivers and Bay class. At less than £2m a set for Sea Giraffe 1X it seems a bit of a no brainer cheap and small enough to go on a future small USV.NickC wrote: ↑07 Feb 2024, 11:47 FWIW a poster's comment on Artisan caught my eye on a War Zone article " San Antonio Class Looks Very Different After Shedding Its Stealthy Masts", not very complimentary to Artisan due its high beamwidth at longer ranges.
Patrick Chase
9 hours ago
This seems a little misleading:
Even the smaller versions of the AN/SPY-6 like the (V)2 offer massive advantages over existing phased array types like the AN/SPS-48, particularly in terms of being able to track more targets at longer ranges with greater precision and fidelity.
For starters SPS-48 is a planar array that is frequency-scanned (FRESCAN) in elevation, not a phased array (though I've seen some sites erroneously conflate the two approaches).
Second, while it's correct that EASR can "track more targets" than SPS-48, it's not as precise ("fidelity" has no defined meaning in this context, so I'll leave that alone). Both SPY-6(V)2 and SPS-48 are S-band radars with wavelengths of ~0.1m. EASR has an aperture size of 6 feet = 1.82 m. It's diffraction-limited beamwidth is therefore 1.22*0.1/1.82 = 0.067 radians = 3.8 degrees. That's actually fairly poor precision by modern search radar standards, and probably insufficient to provide engagement-quality tracks at longer ranges (though some other comparable radars like Type 997 Artisan are even worse).
By contrast, SPS-48's ~5 meter aperture gives it a 1.5 degree beamwidth. It's actually a very precise radar.
I'm not saying that EASR isn't a worthy replacement for SPS-48 or that it isn't a net upgrade, but there is no free lunch and it's simply physically impossible for a 1.8-meter aperture to match a 5-meter one in terms of precision. Size matters whether the radar is AESA or not.
https://www.twz.com/sea/san-antonio-cla ... lthy-masts