Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion

[Tempest414]

While I agree in principal with the logic above, the rest of the Navy is so broken it feels ridiculous to even consider expansion like this.

First the Marines need to decide to be a airborne force, with only limited ability to bring heavy equipotent ashore. The next decade would be spent operating from the Carriers, Bays and unfortunately Argus. At the same time the Navy needs to rapidly modernise is escort fleet, and its benefits package for sailors, because these are the biggest hurdles to progress in the Navy at the moment.

Once the Marines have proven they have a concept of operations that is usable and sustainable, as well as the Navy having a routinely deployable surface fleet, then its the time to design a bespoke assault platform.

Most of the new escort fleet will be place by 2035 (would prefer earlier but it is what it is ) adding 3 more T-31's at the end of the B1's build could make sense this would bring the fleet to 22

The RM are moving to LSU's of 250 troop's and have now got a 200 million pound program for 20 CIC. They also have new MRAZ's , Jackals and are keeping Viking's add to this the Merlin HC4's and what they need finish is say 8 Caimen-90 FLC this package of kit will allow them to get ashore by air and sea from say 100km with the vehicles and kit needed. As said above the key is the ability to have LSU's working alone or bring say 6 together in a battle group

The LPH needs to be say 230 by 40 meters with 4 Davits like Ocean plus a steel beech capable of holding 600 troops i.e 2 x LSU's and a Command & support unit

Last of all I don't see so much as an expansion I see it as replacement like so

Carriers we have 1 x LPH in LPD out , 4 x MRSS in Argus and 3 Bays out , 12 MHPC in 8 MCM & 5 OPV's out we have 6 tankers and the 3 SSS are ordered

[shark bait]

Flesh out the “foundations” in practical terms.

The RN are teetering on the edge of what it takes to be a credible blue water navy, they're missing the basics of having a crew and ships that routinely go to sea. On top of this the Navy needs the support functions, like auxiliaries and aircraft with crew, that are regularity at sea. To be at a point where the UK has a Navy that isn't nailing these foundations is a real embarrassment.

Looking specifically at the Marines, they need to pick a direction that is credible and build a plan that points them the right way. This hasn't existed post Afghanistan, and the amphibious capability has just bounced around reactively and achieved nothing. They need to pick something that can be delivered in the next 5 years. Once the Marines have a credible concept of operations, supported by a well equipped navy that regularly deploys they can plan for expansion.

[Tempest414]

Flesh out the “foundations” in practical terms.

The RN are teetering on the edge of what it takes to be a credible blue water navy, they're missing the basics of having a crew and ships that routinely go to sea. On top of this the Navy needs the support functions, like auxiliaries and aircraft with crew, that are regularity at sea. To be at a point where the UK has a Navy that isn't nailing these foundations is a real embarrassment.

Looking specifically at the Marines, they need to pick a direction that is credible and build a plan that points them the right way. This hasn't existed post Afghanistan, and the amphibious capability has just bounced around reactively and achieved nothing. They need to pick something that can be delivered in the next 5 years. Once the Marines have a credible concept of operations, supported by a well equipped navy that regularly deploys they can plan for expansion.

But as said they have picked away forward which has been tested over the last 4 years and is rolling out as LRG-S moving to LSU's has allowed them to make best use of ships and kit they have got so as said they now have MRAZ-LTV , Jackal and Viking they also have Merlin HC-4 and Wildcat AH-1 at this time they have to get on with ORC , LCVP-5 & LCU but as said there is now funded program for 20 new CIC so what is needed is a new program for a new Fast Landing craft like PACSCAT or Caimen-90

So in terms of where the RM sits they are a more capable sea going Ranger units

[shark bait]

But as said they have picked away forward

Please share. I have not seen anything beyond "we bought one of these, played with it, and took some photos".

[Tempest414]

But as said they have picked away forward

Please share. I have not seen anything beyond "we bought one of these, played with it, and took some photos".

We all know that RM have been working up the LSU concept for sometime in both the US on the Yama test ground and in Oman LRG-S has deployed with 1 Strike company along with Command, Logistics & Engineer support in this video we see them loading MRAZ's , Jackals plus Log's & engineer vehicles we also know that LRG-S will have 3 Merlins


( take this with a pinch of salt but it gives an idea )

[SW1]

But as said they have picked away forward

Please share. I have not seen anything beyond "we bought one of these, played with it, and took some photos".

We all know that RM have been working up the LSU concept for sometime in both the US on the Yama test ground and in Oman LRG-S has deployed with 1 Strike company along with Command, Logistics & Engineer support in this video we see them loading MRAZ's , Jackals plus Log's & engineer vehicles we also know that LRG-S will have 3 Merlins


( take this with a pinch of salt but it gives an idea )

The RM in the past have always been able to conduct company level operations it’s how they operated as part of operation veritas for example. Difference is they were always trained and equipped to operate as a battle group and as a brigade and in their main NATO task to help secure the artic north.

Now there just training to operate as a company.

As we are prioritising the JEF area and supposedly more interested than before in the artic north it seems a strange time to scale back the unit mainly responsible for it.

[SW1]

I sense a preamble to something is brewing

[shark bait]

RE: videos above

This is kinda what I mean, it's been exercises and photo ops but not developing a strategic vision for the future.

What's the scope of operations? What makes that valuable to the UK? What is unique compared to what the army do? How is it going to be sustainable? These are the type of questions the Marines need to decide on, and then build a strategy to get there.

[Tempest414]

I would agree however one might say that the JEF and high north are better served by a Army light Mech brigade

[SW1]

I would agree however one might say that the JEF and high north are better served by a Army light Mech brigade

You could but the fjords, archipelagos and rivers of that region along with the infrastructure would suggest that brigade would need helicopters, watercraft, hovercraft and amphibious vehicles to effectively move around it.

[Repulse]

I would agree however one might say that the JEF and high north are better served by a Army light Mech brigade

You could but the fjords, archipelagos and rivers of that region along with the infrastructure would suggest that brigade would need helicopters, watercraft, hovercraft and amphibious vehicles to effectively move around it.

Perhaps something like this you mean, which was in the Army’s itinerary a decade age

[SW1]

I would agree however one might say that the JEF and high north are better served by a Army light Mech brigade

You could but the fjords, archipelagos and rivers of that region along with the infrastructure would suggest that brigade would need helicopters, watercraft, hovercraft and amphibious vehicles to effectively move around it.

Perhaps something like this you mean, which was in the Army’s itinerary a decade age

If we only we had an organisation that had more than 2 of them and with an interest in boats.

[Repulse]

Apologies, have realised I posted the wrong image, should have been a Ramped Craft Logistic. Had eight in 2010, all sold in 2014.



With some modest investment there’s no reason IMO why the Royal Logistic Corps couldn’t be expanded to support littoral movement for an army brigade to fulfil the JEF role.

[Poiuytrewq]

Once the Marines have a credible concept of operations, supported by a well equipped navy that regularly deploys they can plan for expansion.

Expansion has nothing to do with it. It’s direct replacements that are the priority now.

If the LPDs are deleted in this parliament the UK will drop from a 11x LCU capacity to a 3x LCU capacity. That’s completely unacceptable.

Your proposal that the Royal Marines should go and find themselves for 5 years whilst the world enters its most dangerous phase in 40-50 years seems a tad complacent. Again completely unacceptable.

If the LPDs go the replacement(s) must be brought forward. Gapping LCU capability at scale for a decade would be unconscionable.

Lots of options are available but doing nothing isn’t one of them.

[Poiuytrewq]

I would agree however one might say that the JEF and high north are better served by a Army light Mech brigade

You could but the fjords, archipelagos and rivers of that region along with the infrastructure would suggest that brigade would need helicopters, watercraft, hovercraft and amphibious vehicles to effectively move around it.

The area that the JEF covers should rapidly transition to be a British Army concern now.

RM should start to hand over most of the responsibility asap but still maintain or even expand the level of commitment in the Littoral zones of Norway, Finland and the Baltic states.

Apart from tradition there is little reason for RM to be expending so much time and effort in the region now that Finland and Sweden to be NATO members.

[SW1]

Apologies, have realised I posted the wrong image, should have been a Ramped Craft Logistic. Had eight in 2010, all sold in 2014.



With some modest investment there’s no reason IMO why the Royal Logistic Corps couldn’t be expanded to support littoral movement for an army brigade to fulfil the JEF role.

So take an organisation trained in the use of landing craft in coastal waters, hovercraft and who have bigger ships to transport them the 1500 miles to where there needed, an organisation equipped with and trained in working with landing craft, amphibious vehicles and helicopters, with the instructors and institutional knowledge off mountaineering and arctic conditions and get rid of that.

Then set up a complete different force in a completely different organisation to operate landing craft in coastal areas, hovercraft, conduct riverine operations equip them with amphibious vehicles and build up from scratch the ability to operate in the arctic and train them to climb mountains. While at the same time work out a new way of getting all these small craft and vehicles 1500 miles to where they’re needed.

Yep that would sound exactly like the type of thing the MoD would do and everyone else would wonder where all the money went too.

[SW1]

I would agree however one might say that the JEF and high north are better served by a Army light Mech brigade

You could but the fjords, archipelagos and rivers of that region along with the infrastructure would suggest that brigade would need helicopters, watercraft, hovercraft and amphibious vehicles to effectively move around it.

The area that the JEF covers should rapidly transition to be a British Army concern now.

RM should start to hand over most of the responsibility asap but still maintain or even expand the level of commitment in the Littoral zones of Norway, Finland and the Baltic states.

Apart from tradition there is little reason for RM to be expending so much time and effort in the region now that Finland and Sweden to be NATO members.

So the JEF should be an army concern but we should expand the RM role in JEF

NATO remains are principal military concern that is why we are spending so much time there.

[Repulse]

Apologies, have realised I posted the wrong image, should have been a Ramped Craft Logistic. Had eight in 2010, all sold in 2014.



With some modest investment there’s no reason IMO why the Royal Logistic Corps couldn’t be expanded to support littoral movement for an army brigade to fulfil the JEF role.

So take an organisation trained in the use of landing craft in coastal waters, hovercraft and who have bigger ships to transport them the 1500 miles to where there needed, an organisation equipped with and trained in working with landing craft, amphibious vehicles and helicopters, with the instructors and institutional knowledge off mountaineering and arctic conditions and get rid of that.

Then set up a complete different force in a completely different organisation to operate landing craft in coastal areas, hovercraft, conduct riverine operations equip them with amphibious vehicles and build up from scratch the ability to operate in the arctic and train them to climb mountains. While at the same time work out a new way of getting all these small craft and vehicles 1500 miles to where they’re needed.

Yep that would sound exactly like the type of thing the MoD would do and everyone else would wonder where all the money went too.

Different roles, different requirements. Why do you need to sail a force if they can be forward based. The reason why you used to have to was that Norway prevented foreign forces to be based in Norway - no more. Forget BAOR, think BAON (British Army of the North).

[Repulse]

So the JEF should be an army concern but we should expand the RM role in JEF

NATO remains are principal military concern that is why we are spending so much time there.

JEF is bigger than just protecting the Northern flank and Baltics. The RMs still have a key part to play in the global Expeditionary role.

[shark bait]

Expansion has nothing to do with it.

Really? Because last page was advocating for a third carrier...

to a 3x LCU capacity. That’s completely unacceptable.

...Lots of options are available but doing nothing isn’t one of them.

Is it? When was the last lime LCU were used? Why does having lots of LCU make the Royal Marines a modern and usable force?

Unfortunately the Marines have done nothing for the last decade, they've attempted to exist as they did pre Afghanistan, which failed. Then they proposed small forward deployed units, which failed. So here 2024 is with the Royal Marines lacking purpose and direction, which makes them a very easy target for the spreadsheet warriors.

[SW1]

Apologies, have realised I posted the wrong image, should have been a Ramped Craft Logistic. Had eight in 2010, all sold in 2014.



With some modest investment there’s no reason IMO why the Royal Logistic Corps couldn’t be expanded to support littoral movement for an army brigade to fulfil the JEF role.

So take an organisation trained in the use of landing craft in coastal waters, hovercraft and who have bigger ships to transport them the 1500 miles to where there needed, an organisation equipped with and trained in working with landing craft, amphibious vehicles and helicopters, with the instructors and institutional knowledge off mountaineering and arctic conditions and get rid of that.

Then set up a complete different force in a completely different organisation to operate landing craft in coastal areas, hovercraft, conduct riverine operations equip them with amphibious vehicles and build up from scratch the ability to operate in the arctic and train them to climb mountains. While at the same time work out a new way of getting all these small craft and vehicles 1500 miles to where they’re needed.

Yep that would sound exactly like the type of thing the MoD would do and everyone else would wonder where all the money went too.

Different roles, different requirements. Why do you need to sail a force if they can be forward based. The region why you used to have to, was that Norway prevented foreign forces to be based in Norway - no more. Forget BAOR, think BAON (British Army of the North).

Don’t think they are.

We have a limited amount of cash, fwd basing costs a lot of money Norway is equivalent in length to the distance from Gibraltar to Cyprus so moving means long transits. The equipment to do it properly cost a lot of money and the highly trained people who do it have been shown to be quite flexible so while it’s primarily focused for the artic north having it in the UK means we can use it elsewhere if needed and be flexible with it.

[Repulse]

Don’t think they are.

We have a limited amount of cash, fwd basing costs a lot of money Norway is equivalent in length to the distance from Gibraltar to Cyprus so moving means long transits. The equipment to do it properly cost a lot of money and the highly trained people who do it have been shown to be quite flexible so while it’s primarily focused for the artic north having it in the UK means we can use it elsewhere if needed and be flexible with it.

Given the criticality of the area and (outside of UK / BOT defence) that it’s the highest priority role of the Army, a forward based Brigade is appropriate and is just repeating what has been done many times in the past. I see Camp Viking being part of this whereby the RMs can operate without the need for a LPD.

[SW1]

Don’t think they are.

We have a limited amount of cash, fwd basing costs a lot of money Norway is equivalent in length to the distance from Gibraltar to Cyprus so moving means long transits. The equipment to do it properly cost a lot of money and the highly trained people who do it have been shown to be quite flexible so while it’s primarily focused for the artic north having it in the UK means we can use it elsewhere if needed and be flexible with it.

Given the criticality of the area and (outside of UK / BOT defence) that it’s the highest priority role of the Army, a forward based Brigade is appropriate and is just repeating what has been done many times in the past. I see Camp Viking being part of this whereby the RMs can operate without the need for a LPD.

It’s the highest priority of the armed forces not the army.

[shark bait]

It’s the highest priority of the armed forces not the army.

Would say the highest priority for the RN is CASD. Second would be dominance of the North Atlantic, which I would make the number priority of the RAF along with supporting a BAON.

[Tempest414]

RE: videos above

This is kinda what I mean, it's been exercises and photo ops but not developing a strategic vision for the future.

What's the scope of operations? What makes that valuable to the UK? What is unique compared to what the army do? How is it going to be sustainable? These are the type of questions the Marines need to decide on, and then build a strategy to get there.

these are good questions however I will have a go at some of them

scope of op's = raiding to battalion battle group

value to the UK = specialist naval and littoral raid and strike

whats different to the Army = The ability to strike from Sea , Air and Land

The RM have landing craft , helicopters , vehicles the ability go anywhere and operate from ships the Army can not operate in the Littoral without RM support