River Class (OPV) (RN)

[donald_of_tokyo]

HMS Forth continues her task, now in South Georgia. Beautiful photo.

[donald_of_tokyo]

And, HMS Trent in Caribbean ocean...

[Ianmb17]

Do we need something on River B2 in Falklands to combat these
Argentina now has Hero 30 and Hero 120

https://www.zona-militar.com/2023/12/08 ... -30-y-120/

[Repulse]

Do we need something on River B2 in Falklands to combat these
Argentina now has Hero 30 and Hero 120

30nm max range, so nothing to be too concerned about - however a modest upgrade to a 40 or 57mm gun could be added without much fuss.

[Tempest414]

Do we need something on River B2 in Falklands to combat these
Argentina now has Hero 30 and Hero 120

30nm max range, so nothing to be too concerned about - however a modest upgrade to a 40 or 57mm gun could be added without much fuss.

I have said in the past that we should have Hero 120 on the B2's with there 65KM range and 1 hour endurance

as said in the escort thread with the world becoming more unstable I feel we really need to upgrade the RB2's with NS50 4D radar , 40mm main gun , 4 x 12.7mm and 2 x 8 round Starstreak/ LMM mounts plus a Camcopter with I-Master radar this would allow a RB2 to defend its self against most things up to early gen ASM's

[Ian Hall]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/british ... smugglers/

[Ian Hall]

BBC News - Guyana: UK to send warship to South America amid Venezuela tensions
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67806227

[Ian Hall]

A sensible and appropriate defence diplomacy move.

[wargame_insomniac]

Would feel better if we had a destroyer at high readiness ready to sail to backup Trent if open warfare does break out.

[Tempest414]

Would feel better if we had a destroyer at high readiness ready to sail to backup Trent if open warfare does break out.

The best thing to send now would be the 16AA high readiness battle group on a training ex and given the land there the Gurkha regt maybe the best option

And again this brings us back to what I said about China and Russia pushing into the Atlantic we are going to need to be able to protect our interests in both the North and South Atlantic and the Indian Ocean

[SW1]

We’ll be sending them to the gulf next.

[Ian Hall]

....and the Sky News report

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-sends-war ... a-13037291

[Tempest414]

A sensible and appropriate defence diplomacy move.

or more to the point all we have got

we really need to get on and upgrade the RB2's fast

[donald_of_tokyo]

A sensible and appropriate defence diplomacy move.

or more to the point all we have got

we really need to get on and upgrade the RB2's fast

I think a River is perfect for this - it’s showing intent but cannot be argued to raise tensions.

Proliferation of UAVs is definitely a concern, as are fast boats - both that could easily be addressed with some cheap modifications starting with a 57mm gun and a LMM armed UAV. The intention would not be to fight but to deter.

[Scimitar54]

Logical way to go about this, would be to remove the 5 x 57mm from the T31s and fit them to the RB2s, then fit a (simpler) 127mm Gun to each of the 5 x T31s. Improved deterrent effect across 2 x Classes of Ship.

[Nimonic]

A sensible and appropriate defence diplomacy move.

or more to the point all we have got

we really need to get on and upgrade the RB2's fast

I think a River is perfect for this - it’s showing intent but cannot be argued to raise tensions.

Proliferation of UAVs is definitely a concern, as are fast boats - both that could easily be addressed with some cheap modifications starting with a 57mm gun and a LMM armed UAV. The intention would not be to fight but to deter.

Agreed on all points.

As much fun as it might be to see a CSG steaming over there, it would give the Venezuelans a perfect justification for their 'Guyana is still a British colony' argument. The narrative that's being fed to the local population and other Bolivarian leaning South American political parties to justify the invasion.

Should the conflict escalate, so too can our reponse but for now a River says all that needs to be said.

[tomuk]

A sensible and appropriate defence diplomacy move.

or more to the point all we have got

we really need to get on and upgrade the RB2's fast

I think a River is perfect for this - it’s showing intent but cannot be argued to raise tensions.

Proliferation of UAVs is definitely a concern, as are fast boats - both that could easily be addressed with some cheap modifications starting with a 57mm gun and a LMM armed UAV. The intention would not be to fight but to deter.

Agreed on all points.

As much fun as it might be to see a CSG steaming over there, it would give the Venezuelans a perfect justification for their 'Guyana is still a British colony' argument. The narrative that's being fed to the local population and other Bolivarian leaning South American political parties to justify the invasion.

Should the conflict escalate, so too can our reponse but for now a River says all that needs to be said.

I'd be much happier with a T23GP.

[wargame_insomniac]

I'd be much happier with a T23GP.

I think I would too, particularly if I was on board. However we are deploying to what is still a location of heightened tensions, rather than a war zone, so it's more a tool of brinkmanship.

Makes a fairly good case for procuring additional Type 31 though. Possibly more than an uparmed River Class.

[Ian Hall]

I'd be much happier with a T23GP.

Why? If you sent a T23 is would be seen as an escalation and colonial style interference. If you are not intending to start something don’t raise the stakes, by all means have SSNs / CSG in your back pocket if someone else starts something, but this isn’t about the UK imposing its will, it’s about showing solidarity.

[new guy]

BBC News - Guyana: UK to send warship to South America amid Venezuela tensions
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67806227

Again, BBC defence article quality:
States wrong crew number
States wrong ship speed
It says that the Guyana Georgetown port is too shallow for HMS Trent to come alongside , despite it not being so, proven both by the sources of the port and the ships that visit it.
Oh and calls a OPV and warship.

[tomuk]

I'd be much happier with a T23GP.

Why? If you sent a T23 is would be seen as an escalation and colonial style interference. If you are not intending to start something don’t raise the stakes, by all means have SSNs / CSG in your back pocket if someone else starts something, but this isn’t about the UK imposing its will, it’s about showing solidarity.

The River all over the press is being described as a warship and I can't see why the Venezuelans would see the distinction either.

It isn't a colonial issue or the UK being seen to impose its will. Guyana is sovereign country and as it stands under international law while disputed the territory is part of Guyana and not for annexing by their neighbour.

You keep making a point of surge fleets and holding things in reserve. What circumstances would you use said reserve or surge? Is not the threatened integrity of one country by a belligerent neighbour not one such circumstance?

If as you suggested that the Rivers were upgraded with 57mm and a UAV with LMM. Would they then not be too capable not to be seen as an escalation?

What do we do then send a commandeered trawler?

[Tempest414]

BBC News - Guyana: UK to send warship to South America amid Venezuela tensions
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67806227

Again, BBC defence article quality:
States wrong crew number
States wrong ship speed
It says that the Guyana Georgetown port is too shallow for HMS Trent to come alongside , despite it not being so, proven both by the sources of the port and the ships that visit it.
Oh and calls a OPV and warship.

Yes some bad press but the crew size is right as the RB'2 have 65 with 45 aboard at anytime and the Speed is right too at 24 knots some say 25 knots but 1 knot is here or there is knit picking

[Tempest414]

I'd be much happier with a T23GP.

Why? If you sent a T23 is would be seen as an escalation and colonial style interference. If you are not intending to start something don’t raise the stakes, by all means have SSNs / CSG in your back pocket if someone else starts something, but this isn’t about the UK imposing its will, it’s about showing solidarity.

The River all over the press is being described as a warship and I can't see why the Venezuelans would see the distinction either.

It isn't a colonial issue or the UK being seen to impose its will. Guyana is sovereign country and as it stands under international law while disputed the territory is part of Guyana and not for annexing by their neighbour.

You keep making a point of surge fleets and holding things in reserve. What circumstances would you use said reserve or surge? Is not the threatened integrity of one country by a belligerent neighbour not one such circumstance?

If as you suggested that the Rivers were upgraded with 57mm and a UAV with LMM. Would they then not be too capable not to be seen as an escalation?

What do we do then send a commandeered trawler?

If we had a T-23 ready I would send it as a T-23 as and of its self is not a big deal how ever if thing turn fast we are not just dealing with some 76mm armed patrol ships and fast attack boats but also a airforce with F-16's and SU-30's

Now for me as said fitting the RB2's with a NS50 radar to give them better eyes and ears plus a 40mm , 2 x 8 round Starstreak / LMM mounts for better defence and the new Camcopter for eyes OTH really needs start ASAP as we are starting to see thing go down hill fast

[Ian Hall]

If we had a T-23 ready I would send it as a T-23 as and of its self is not a big deal how ever if thing turn fast we are not just dealing with some 76mm armed patrol ships and fast attack boats but also a airforce with F-16's and SU-30's

At the risk of an egregious diversion the article at link gives an insight into the state Venezuela's SU-30s https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_te ... -7202.html
To what extent are Venezuela's F16s still serviceable in the face of longstanding US sanctions is an interesting question.

[Repulse]

The River all over the press is being described as a warship and I can't see why the Venezuelans would see the distinction either.

Poor defence reporting is what it is - one thing for sure is that will not a centre spread about how many missiles it has etc. Regardless, if a T31 turned with its coveted MK41 tubes with land strike missiles, then Venezuela would have a legitimate reason to feel threatened.

It isn't a colonial issue or the UK being seen to impose its will.

Sorry, but it’s a very naive view. Just read the global mood - the reason why India for example sits on the fence is that both Russia and China are using the colonial card to maximum effect.

You keep making a point of surge fleets and holding things in reserve. What circumstances would you use said reserve or surge?

It’s not difficult when there is credible and published intelligence that Venezuela is about to attack or they have. It’s the grey war that is the killer, but they are trying to escalate so you need to play a different game.

If as you suggested that the Rivers were upgraded with 57mm and a UAV with LMM. Would they then not be too capable not to be seen as an escalation?

If escalation happens that’s when the tier one force arrives. Again, the Rivers are about presence and need a level of self defence, not fighting.