Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Poiuytrewq]

I can see the difference on the two cgi images. I wonder why there remained cgi images? I also never heard the price for those two designs do you have a reliable figure for what they were being offered for? I have yet to see any evidence anywhere of a yard in the uk willing to build an opv of that level for £100m pounds. The yard that built the opvs in 2016 were not inexperienced at building ships.

Even building the David Attenborough for £200m near bankrupted camel laird and appledore did go bust building opvs for Ireland.

In the UK they are fully commercial yard not sure they are in France Italy or Spain.

The Irish OPVs built in Appledore is a perfect example of what can be achieved for much less than £100m. Don’t forget the proposed 115m OPV is estimated at £100m plus £50m for the upgraded CMS, radar, weapons and integration etc. The metal bashing to near commercial standards with simple CODAD propulsion, non acoustically optimised hull and minimal design complexity shouldn’t be hugely expensive.

RRS SDA at 15000t at £200m is a completely different beast to a no frills 3750t FLD OPV at £150m. The RRS SDA is vastly more complex and if anything that example reinforces my point.

• The RRS SDA works out at £13k per tonne.

• The FSS works out at £15k per tonne.

• The Samuel Beckett OPV’s work out at £34k per tonne (adjusted for inflation)

• The OPV MAX at £150m is £40k per tonne.

• The Type 31 at £275m is £48k per tonne.

It’s a crude metric but it is worthy of debate IMO.

Why do you insist that such a simple vessel should cost so much more?

[tomuk]

• The OPV MAX at £150m is £40k per tonne.

On what basis?

[SW1]

I can see the difference on the two cgi images. I wonder why there remained cgi images? I also never heard the price for those two designs do you have a reliable figure for what they were being offered for? I have yet to see any evidence anywhere of a yard in the uk willing to build an opv of that level for £100m pounds. The yard that built the opvs in 2016 were not inexperienced at building ships.

Even building the David Attenborough for £200m near bankrupted camel laird and appledore did go bust building opvs for Ireland.

In the UK they are fully commercial yard not sure they are in France Italy or Spain.

The Irish OPVs built in Appledore is a perfect example of what can be achieved for much less than £100m. Don’t forget the proposed 115m OPV is estimated at £100m plus £50m for the upgraded CMS, radar, weapons and integration etc. The metal bashing to near commercial standards with simple CODAD propulsion, non acoustically optimised hull and minimal design complexity shouldn’t be hugely expensive.

RRS SDA at 15000t at £200m is a completely different beast to a no frills 3750t FLD OPV at £150m. The RRS SDA is vastly more complex and if anything that example reinforces my point.

• The RRS SDA works out at £13k per tonne.

• The FSS works out at £15k per tonne.

• The Samuel Beckett OPV’s work out at £34k per tonne (adjusted for inflation)

• The OPV MAX at £150m is £40k per tonne.

• The Type 31 at £275m is £48k per tonne.

It’s a crude metric but it is worthy of debate IMO.

Why do you insist that such a simple vessel should cost so much more?

Well for one the yard that built the Irish opv went bust might give a clue to the economics of it. The other yard that built an opv didn’t get anywhere near £100m for an opv.

If your now saying a opv might cost £150m pound we’re getting closer though when the Spanish are building a simple opv of the type we are talking about for slightly more than that I’m still sceptical given todays workforce and supply chain issues. I’d say we are in the 150-200m price range depending on exactly what’s it’s asked to do. I would add when the Dutch and Belgians are building their mcm mothership in this price range and you’ve said it’s not good enough then I can’t see how we are doing more for less tbh.

[new guy]

Well for one the yard that built the Irish opv went bust might give a clue to the economics of it. The other yard that built an opv didn’t get anywhere near £100m for an opv.

Interesting take - Appledore closed due to lack of orders - it was part of T31 alternative bid and lost. It came back because the yes is viable is there is work.

There is absolutely no reason why UK yards cannot build a £100mn OPV of ordered in numbers and investment made in a “OPV” factory - it just requires commitment.

This is a tiresome line of argument you are making.

[SW1]

Well for one the yard that built the Irish opv went bust might give a clue to the economics of it. The other yard that built an opv didn’t get anywhere near £100m for an opv.

Interesting take - Appledore closed due to lack of orders - it was part of T31 alternative bid and lost. It came back because the yes is viable is there is work.

There is absolutely no reason why UK yards cannot build a £100mn OPV of ordered in numbers and investment made in a “OPV” factory - it just requires commitment.

This is a tiresome line of argument you are making.

Ok then this revolutionary opv churned out from this opv factory. Who making this commitment from industry and where? What does this £100m opv look like eg its size, its sensors, its aviation capabilities its range, its armaments and what roles and tasks is it going to do for the Royal Navy. Just so there is some grounding in fact if you could give a comparison to a similar ship built for a navy somewhere in the world with a similar need that would be good.

[Poiuytrewq]

Just so there is some grounding in fact if you could give a comparison to a similar ship built for a navy somewhere in the world with a similar need that would be good.

The T31 at £275m built in Rosyth.

Remove 50% of the entire propulsion system.

Remove 50% steel, bulkheads, doors, cabling, electrics, accommodation etc.

Remove 50% of the man hours to construct it.

Retain the basic weapons and sensors.

Why is that so controversial?

[Caribbean]

The costs of building OPVs is not comparable with building credible Frigates.

Some years ago I tried to figure out approximate costs for building OPVs vs frigates by looking at as many published costs as I could find

My rough estimate was around £26,000 per tonne for a basic OPV and £66,000 per tonne for a frigate.

Both will obviously have changed due to inflation, greater efficiency in active yards and a host of other factors. but it was quite useful for guestimating costs at the time

Though those figures are probably no longer valid (and imprecise, because they make no allowances for high-end vs low-end equipment fits etc), the overall figure of an OPV costing around 40% of a frigate of similar tonnage is still quite useful, I think

If others have done similar estimations, I would be interested to know what figures you came up with

And, of course, the figures may not be scalable to larger hulls, as warship build standards change once you go past 100m in length (one of the reasons why I think the maximum length of an OPV should be 100m, as once you go beyond that, you are moving into minor warship build standards by default)

[SW1]

Just so there is some grounding in fact if you could give a comparison to a similar ship built for a navy somewhere in the world with a similar need that would be good.

The T31 at £275m built in Rosyth.

Remove 50% of the entire propulsion system.

Remove 50% steel, bulkheads, doors, cabling, electrics, accommodation etc.

Remove 50% of the man hours to construct it.

Retain the basic weapons and sensors.

Why is that so controversial?

Does doing the top 2 equate to allowing you to reduce the 3rd by that much. I would suggest it isn’t linear.

What you are retaining is likely disproportionately where the cost is.

I would however suggest if you dropped 2 of the engines from the type 31 and reduced the speed requirement reduced the radar spec maybe to something like Holland opv and deleted the camm system then you have a C3 type hull to use. Doubt you would get close to 100m though.

[Repulse]

Ok then this revolutionary opv churned out from this opv factory. Who making this commitment from industry and where? What does this £100m opv look like eg its size, its sensors, its aviation capabilities its range, its armaments and what roles and tasks is it going to do for the Royal Navy. Just so there is some grounding in fact if you could give a comparison to a similar ship built for a navy somewhere in the world with a similar need that would be good.

Sure, I’ve given one already for a forward patrol OPV

Kership class

[donald_of_tokyo]

Just so there is some grounding in fact if you could give a comparison to a similar ship built for a navy somewhere in the world with a similar need that would be good.

The T31 at £275m built in Rosyth.

Remove 50% of the entire propulsion system.

Remove 50% steel, bulkheads, doors, cabling, electrics, accommodation etc.

Remove 50% of the man hours to construct it.

As already pointed out, 50% less "man hours to construct it" will require 1/3 or 1/4 sized hull. And, with "1/3 or 1/4 sized hull", we just get "a River B2 sized vessel built to frigate standard".
No problem.

Retain the basic weapons and sensors.

Then, the cost will not be 50%.

In other words, something like this will come? 100mm gun better be 57 mm gun, NATO Sea Sparrow be 12 CAMM. To locate a flight deck, omit gas-turbine (needs large exhaust and intake) and improve diesel gen. Not sure if a Wildcat hangar can be added, maybe, maybe not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielingen-class_frigate

[SW1]

Ok then this revolutionary opv churned out from this opv factory. Who making this commitment from industry and where? What does this £100m opv look like eg its size, its sensors, its aviation capabilities its range, its armaments and what roles and tasks is it going to do for the Royal Navy. Just so there is some grounding in fact if you could give a comparison to a similar ship built for a navy somewhere in the world with a similar need that would be good.

Sure, I’ve given one already for a forward patrol OPV

Kership class

So the one that Argentina bought or Gabon?

[Repulse]

Ok then this revolutionary opv churned out from this opv factory. Who making this commitment from industry and where? What does this £100m opv look like eg its size, its sensors, its aviation capabilities its range, its armaments and what roles and tasks is it going to do for the Royal Navy. Just so there is some grounding in fact if you could give a comparison to a similar ship built for a navy somewhere in the world with a similar need that would be good.

Sure, I’ve given one already for a forward patrol OPV

Kership class

So the one that Argentina bought or Gabon?

Argentina - built under licence but with minor mods to fit RN standard kit (like the B2 River was upgraded from the Amazonas class).

[donald_of_tokyo]

Thanks, new-guy-san

Interesting shots.

BAES strike frigate looks like having 4 fixed AESA on its mast.
Multi-Role Vessel looks like having a ARTISAN 3D on its mast.

Also the new ship-to-shore connector design is interesting to see. A BMT Caimen 60 like hull with enclosed deck?

[new guy]

Thanks, but did you accidentally put on wrong thread?

[donald_of_tokyo]

Thanks, but did you accidentally put on wrong thread?

BAE strike frigate is a T32 candidate (although I do not think it will come true in near future). So, "future escorts" thread is OK, I guess?

[SW1]

Ok then this revolutionary opv churned out from this opv factory. Who making this commitment from industry and where? What does this £100m opv look like eg its size, its sensors, its aviation capabilities its range, its armaments and what roles and tasks is it going to do for the Royal Navy. Just so there is some grounding in fact if you could give a comparison to a similar ship built for a navy somewhere in the world with a similar need that would be good.

Sure, I’ve given one already for a forward patrol OPV

Kership class

So the one that Argentina bought or Gabon?

Argentina - built under licence but with minor mods to fit RN standard kit (like the B2 River was upgraded from the Amazonas class).

I think if that’s the level of ambition for such a ship I see next to no role in the RN for it beyond possible the replace the three rivers in uk waters.

[Repulse]

I think if that’s the level of ambition for such a ship I see next to no role in the RN for it beyond possible the replace the three rivers in uk waters.

Yet more nonsense.

With its range / endurance, efficiency, ability to launch large rhibs/USVs through its dual stern ramp, ability to accommodate a small helicopter or UAV in its hangar and other containerised capabilities from its flight deck it is capable of global patrol operations currently performed by the B2s and also any constabulary low threat roles.

Small improvements in sensors, perhaps a 40/57mm gun and a reconfiguration of the hangar deck to act more as a mission bay with make it even better.

No need for expensive T31s to fulfill forward roles , allowing funds to go towards the fighting fleet.

[SW1]

I think if that’s the level of ambition for such a ship I see next to no role in the RN for it beyond possible the replace the three rivers in uk waters.

Yet more nonsense.

With its range / endurance, efficiency, ability to launch large rhibs/USVs through its dual stern ramp, ability to accommodate a small helicopter or UAV in its hangar and other containerised capabilities from its flight deck it is capable of global patrol operations currently performed by the B2s and also any constabulary low threat roles.

Small improvements in sensors, perhaps a 40/57mm gun and a reconfiguration of the hangar deck to act more as a mission bay with make it even better.

No need for expensive T31s to fulfill forward roles , allowing funds to go towards the fighting fleet.

The French used it for 3 years to check red tuna quotas in the Mediterranean then handed it over to Argentina who ordered 3 more. The argentines intend to use them for maritime search and rescue and combating illegal fishing.

[dmereifield]

I think if that’s the level of ambition for such a ship I see next to no role in the RN for it beyond possible the replace the three rivers in uk waters.

Yet more nonsense.

With its range / endurance, efficiency, ability to launch large rhibs/USVs through its dual stern ramp, ability to accommodate a small helicopter or UAV in its hangar and other containerised capabilities from its flight deck it is capable of global patrol operations currently performed by the B2s and also any constabulary low threat roles.

Small improvements in sensors, perhaps a 40/57mm gun and a reconfiguration of the hangar deck to act more as a mission bay with make it even better.

No need for expensive T31s to fulfill forward roles , allowing funds to go towards the fighting fleet.

With the anticipated upgrades (more CAMM, NSM and MK41), aren't the T31's becoming part of the fighting fleet?

[new guy]

The French used it for 3 years to check red tuna quotas in the Mediterranean then handed it over to Argentina who ordered 3 more. The argentines intend to use them for maritime search and rescue and combating illegal fishing.

Now that you’ve been proved wrong in the argument that there aren’t existing £100mn OPV designs, I see you’ve moved to trivialising it. I just hope in a few weeks you will not go back and once again state as fact that no such vessels exist.

Even if your suggestion that the class is very limited in its role was true (it is not, see below), it’s irrelevant. Following your logic would mean that the River class has the same limitations (as the B1s and Amazonas class are being used for specific roles) which is plainly absurd.

L’droit during its short time in French service, patrolled French overseas territories EEZ in the Indian Ocean, did a stint in the EU Atlanta anti-piracy task force (apparently something some people can only be done by frigates with NSM), helped evacuate citizens from Yemen, curbed illegal immigration and yes fisheries protection. As you know the MN didn’t own the ship and had to let it go due to cost pressures.

The Argentine Navy plan to use theirs for:
- The surveillance and control of natural resources (covering but not limited to fish)
- The control and protection of maritime traffic (something you are keen on)
- Search and rescue
- HADR
- Protection of minor naval units
- Maintaining Argentine naval presence

All good things and the low level global, BOT and UK priority roles that the RN needs to fufil.

[Repulse]

With the anticipated upgrades (more CAMM, NSM and MK41), aren't the T31's becoming part of the fighting fleet?

Yes they are, but two things -

- the fighting fleet should not be permanently forward based to the four winds, they should be UK based ready to surge to troubled regions as a fighting force that can make a difference and win a fight if it comes to it.
- the T31 was never assessed as a war fighting frigate for the RN, the RN wanted more T26s, but got told the funds aren’t there. It’s good that money seems to be available to add more things, but fundamentally the platform is limited in key areas. I’m all for making the best of things, but that should be optimising and using the T31 for local EEZ / NATO duties so the more capable T26s and T45s can be used to their full potential.

[Tempest414]

The truth is fitting 32 Mk-41's will not make T-31 a C1 ship but more a high end C2 ship which…

Is a target. Just build more T26s if your objective is to end up with a war fighting ship that has qualitative advantage over numerically superior forces.

This is just not true at any level unless you accept every war ship is a target

It is now common knowledge that T-31 will be fitted with 2170 SSTD system to defend against torpedo attack and if T-31 gets 32 Mk-41 then in the surface and AAW fight T-26 has little or no advantage over T-31

If Type 31 goes to sea with its sensor fit 1 x 57mm , 2 x 40mm , 32 Mk-41 and S2170 it is going to be a great C2 ship and a real handful for any ship out there

[Repulse]

This is just not true at any level unless you accept every war ship is a target

It is now common knowledge that T-31 will be fitted with 2170 SSTD system to defend against torpedo attack and if T-31 gets 32 Mk-41 then in the surface and AAW fight T-26 has little or no advantage over T-31

If Type 31 goes to sea with its sensor fit 1 x 57mm , 2 x 40mm , 32 Mk-41 and S2170 it is going to be a great C2 ship and a real handful for any ship out there

Yes every ship is a target, but if a ship has been designed from the ground up to fight, it’s not just a target.

Spending more money on what supposed to be a cheap ship and adding additional kit to the T31 does help close the gap, but it’s fundamentally a tier 2 ship that does not have the qualitative advantage that the RN would need and chose of a tier 1 ship in its fleet. If it was affordable, I would have no problem with a tier 2, but the RN doesn’t and every pound spent on a tier 2 is a pound not spent on more capable ships. I know it’s just my opinion and we must make good a bad decision, but I’ve seen nothing to convince me otherwise.

[Repulse]

@SW1, I saw you replied to my post but it’s gone?

[SW1]

@SW1, I saw you replied to my post but it’s gone?

It is couldn’t be bothered going round this you on this any longer. If you think this extremely limited vessel 3 of which the French built and transferred the one already built for €398m to Argentina could be built in the uk for £100m for the RN and that the Royal Navy would even entertain commissioning it for the missions it needs to undertake in fwd deployed or around the uk in its current state go ahead.